griff851
Well there's a title for a new thread in Tech.
Griff
Mr.R
Hi Griff,
I've ran 15/39 then 15/40 and at the moment I'm running 15/41 with a motor kicking out 116 rwbhp on a conservative dyno, originally it ran standard '92 851 Strada gearing of 15/37.
I highly recommend the 15/41 it still gives a top speed of 160+ mph, but comes out of the blocks/corners like a greyhound with a rocket stuck up it's arse, lifting the front wheel when changing up to 3rd at around 85 mph when hard on the gas!!!
996 Bip's are History after whacking open the throttle on this old nail, in fact with the lower gearing and the lightened all up weight (including almost skinny me 😉 )it gives 996SPS's a run for their money.
Steve R
griff851
I had a go on a 848 again today, I could be giving them a tickle up. With your suggested gearing, it would be a cert.
Griff
Mr.R
griff851 wroteThanks guys, now you'ved egged me on and I'm going to have to throw it on the dyno, so I guess I better get real familiar with the FIM box. I personally am guessing more to 114hp and 70 ftlb torque due to the ceramic stuff as there is a couple of horses in it. The future will reveal all. The boys in the shop are going for 100-105.
Griff
The boys in the shop sound pretty clued up to me, their guesstimate is about the same as mine, (I'm going for 103-105 rwbhp) Marvin's going for 110 and you're going for/Hoping...No Praying for 114 rwbhp...😉
I think 70 ftlbs of torque is a bit hopefull mate, Jaspers tricked out 888SP5 is making around 75 ftlbs, my 916cc (V Two 604's rip off 996SPS cams, but standard 916 valves) motor's kicking out 67.5 ftlbs IIRC?
Both of these motors are running big bore spaghetti systems, mines a full 50mm system I'm not sure how big Jasper's is?
By the way I've got ceramic coated pistons in my 851/916, did you get any other engine parts coated?
I know you had the ST4 headers done.
I've still to get my headers (maybe the full system) coated inside and out when I can find the spare cash.
Only time and a dyno run will settle who's nearest Griff...
Steve R Waiting with baited breath.....................
griff851
Shake down and run in ride today. A quick 30km trip, winding hilly road, ,2nd,3rd and 4th. punching up to 6k back to 4k a few times, then 7k back to 4k for a bit. Then 8k back to 5k for a bit. (Great road for it), then finally a couple of pokes at 9k.
A quick stop and a look about. A smoke and a look at the mountains. Then back home, same sort of deal, with a big 8k-8.5k blast in 4th at the end. I have shift points set on the SPA. SP3 is 8.2k, SP2 is 7k SP1 is 6.5k. A very handy bit of kit.
I also last night stuck the standard water temp gauge sensor in the oil return port on the cases and ran a wire. Then set the SPA temp sensor in the water temp port. Wah-la data.
Result:- riding along 67°C water and about the same for oil. Stop and idle for a bit (long traffic light change) Oil started to climb, then water. And got to just over 90°C for oil and 86 for water. Once moving back to 67°
Power delivery was not crisp and raw. Response was slightly rounded. The arse-o-meter, gave the impression I was pulling harder than the 848, but the 848 is very well oiled power and can be hard to judge using the arse-o-meter.
Pipes at interval and end were darkish and left soot on my pinky.
Having set only idle on the map at the initial tune up run. (purposely to give me a known point) I conclude the bike is running cool because its too rich. I also have now a target operating temp of 84°. Idle is a CO of 4.8% on the front and 5% on the rear. I don't have off set mapping so in order to compensate for the rear pot running leaner......( Don't know the base maps off sets or even if it has any.)
Next plug in the box and do a running trim change on the the entire map until I get to 84°C. at 5-7k in 3rd.Too easy. Ready for a dyno run. This way I get to compare seat of the pants tuning to dyno.
Ah, it's all just entertainment isn't it.
Griff
got2dv8
Griff,
Good to hear that you are back on the road! Sounds like your last ride could have been a photo opp also... Keep the info coming and the pix. Can't wait to see what the dyno tells. Could you refresh my memory on your valve sizes??? and where you sourced them.
Robert
griff851
34/29. I asked Stefan if he had any lying around, and he just happen to have 5. No more unfortunately. You could try Tom Eubank at Ducati Depot, he might be able to find some. He's getting in an S4 mon at the end of the week. I don't know what size valves they have, could be 34's
Griff
marvin
got2dv8 wroteGriff,
Good to hear that you are back on the road! Sounds like your last ride could have been a photo opp also... Keep the info coming and the pix. Can't wait to see what the dyno tells. Could you refresh my memory on your valve sizes??? and where you sourced them.
Robert
Try Andy Rounds at SMC inc. in NC
https://www.smcspec.com
He can get any size valve you want.
got2dv8
thanks, I am trying to figure out what the optimum valve size would be with the 748 heads... I will move over to Tech for that as not to hijack Griff's thread.
Robert
oh thanks to you too Griff... didn't see your post
griff851
Toady I managed to arrange some free time, so it was time for the big tuning run. All up I did 100km. The engine is now run in I feel.
I started out by taping the FIM HHT to the tank, then set the overall map at -5.4%. This I obtained from CO's at idle. I then set out for the country side.
Once out of town I first set the overall map at -10% to see if I could get a temp rise. No. Still determined to sit at 68°C for water and 70-75°C for oil. So I banged it down to 15%. The power became hollow, but no temp rise. (Each change requires a stop by the side of the road).
Ok so that theory went out the window. So it was back to the old Bum-o-meter. I set the overall map back to -5.4% and decided to deal with acceleration.
The megazone is broken up into 7 zones, each zones boundaries can be changed down to an individual point of 256, but I just left them as there were. Zone 1 deals with idle, zone 2 closed throttle over run, zone 3 free revving, zone 4 cruise midrange, zone 5 accelerating into corners, zone 6 full power through the gears, zone 7 full power top speed. Zone 0 the entire map. Zone 2,4 and 6 have an rpm band of 2500-6000, zone 5 and 7 is 6000 to 10500.the other boundaries are determine by throttle position.
So acceleration consisted of selecting zone 6 then giving it some. Stopping then adjusting the trim up or down after a few stops I settled on -6.2%. It gave the best feel. It's pretty easy to tell when its under fueled and when its over fueled, so by starting at -10% then trimming up to when its started to get boggy, it didn't take long to settle on -6.2%. Next it was zone 7, similar procedure except I was traveling a hell of a lot faster😁 . -3.9% was zone 7's best feel.
Then I found a few fast corners. and played with zone 5. -3.9% for it. Then finally I gave zone 4 a setting of -2.4%, just for the hell of it, it could probably come down more towards -5.4%, but I ran out of time.
After each zone was dealt with I stopped and checked out the tail pipe. I managed to keep it a nice darkish gray.
I have to say after mucking around with it for a bit, it turned out not half bad. From 5000 in 2nd to around 8500, then punching through the gears until 9500 in 5th my arse was pushing hard against the bum pad. It never did that in its 851 form. I can tell however there may be a dip around 6500 on a dyno graph.
Unfortunately I didn't get time to play advance the spark map game either, as I had to go to a primary school disco. Where I spent most of the time positioning my self as to be looking at my daughter dancing, when in fact I was perving on a blond, slim, big breasted, tall, very yummy mummy, with out getting busted by my wife, who later referred to her as the school scank.😁
Next the actual dyno run.
Yes I can see Steve how going to a 41 on the rear may tend to power lift.
Griff
got2dv8
Griff,
Good stuff! I am very intrigued with the FIM hand-held unit. Yes, I know they don't make them anymore ... and I guess they aren't around. Too bad. btw. don't you know by now that bikes are better than chicks... yes even top-heavy ones. You see Griff, unlike chicks you can ride your bike all day... and when you are done... your bike won't bitch at you and ask to go to the shopping mall😁 .
Robert
ps thinking that if you do enough screwing around with the HHT you may achieve better results than the dyno.. after all seat-of-the-pants feedback is most relevant to the grin-factor.
griff851
Well far be it for me to have big head syndrome, but today I couldn't help myself. I went into the shop and straight up got the mechanic to take if for a ride and give me his opinion, with out blowing wind up my arse. Well he came back and so i asked him how much grunt did he think it had. He replied, better than an 848 and possibly a 996, and that it spun up really quick. So I went Ok cool. Then later on he took out a ST4S after a service which has pipes and an ECU and came back. He then went, yep your machine seems to have about the same if not a tad more . Way cool. Objective achieved. Or as you Pommy types say"result gov".That would also explain the slight feather in the clutch I had while traversing town in second, which resulted in the front wheel getting air time. No need to change rear sprocket.
Ooooo do I dyno and get hard figures or leave to it here say..........
Evil laugh fading off to the distance......
Griff
sp2 boy
griff851 wroteOr as you Pommy types say"result gov".
Griff
Hey Griff,
your watching way too much telly and especially repeats of 'The Sweeney', forget 'Eastenders' because it is nuffing like dat eva!
I prefer 'The Sullivans'. 😝
griff851
A tragic week. Went over to the shop for tyres, none in stock, and I managed to lose HP and torque on the way. The other mechanic was there and he took the bike out for a flog. He came back and he only rated it a paltry 916. And on top of that the ambient temp has risen 3°C but water and oil temp have gone up 6°C after 2 trips across town. My guess is that would be carbon build up on the nice shiny combustion chamber.
Carbon.... man, these guys are not kidding. Not only is it warming the planet, but its robbing me of HP, torque and apparently CC's.😁
On the up side the cases will last longer.
Yes yes dyno. Getting there.
Mr.R
Hi Griff,
Funny that you mentioned the future dyno run, I was wondering when that was going to happen, I was going to post something along the lines of...
Dyno, Dyno, Dyno, When, When, When??
Having run my bike/motor now for a couple of thousand miles since it was on the dyno in May, I've found a bit of a rough patch in the fueling around the 4-5,000 rpm mark on small throttle openings, which showed up quite badly on a recent DOCGB rideout on a warm day.
I was following a 60's 250 single for some miles admiring how well the little old girl was going, (it won it's class at last years MotoGiro in Italy) but the speeds he could do meant that I was mainly in this rough spot, then the other night after visiting Nessie in the Hospital in Plymouth, (she's finally had the trashed left ankle fused) I rode home on a fairly cool/almost cold evening and the rough spot had all but gone at this temp'.
Sounds to me like a case of too much fuel in this range.
So today I've arranged to throw the 851/916cc on the dyno next Friday morning at 10am, to try and get the roughness ironed out.
When the bike was on the dyno before it had the somewhat knackered chain on it, which can sap power now since changed for a shiney new DID ERV3 and a 41th rear sprocket one up than the one fitted for the last dyno run.
I'm very interested to see if the new chain/sprockets, a couple thousands miles worth of carbon in the combustion chambers/exhaust ports has altered the power?
I'm hoping for an extra couple of RWBHP, of course if the outputs dropped I'll be pulling the cams to see if the V-Two 604's have started to eat the rockers again. 😯
No signs of any shrapnel at the last oil change, fingers crossed for the next one though.
This week I'll (Again) be checking the TPS setting, cleaning the airfilter, balancing the TB's, fitting new sparkplugs, resealing the spaghetti system that's developed a popping on the overrun and cleaning the recently fitted chain then lubing it with my new can of Motul 'factory line' chain lube which also claims a power boost.
All this between commuting on the bike to work.
It's a shame I'm still several hundred miles short of an oil change (and as poor as a church mouse) or I'd bung in some fresh oil.
Soooo Griff am I going to beat you to the dyno?
Does my theory of a light dusting of carbon in the chambers/exhaust ports actually gain power?
Or do your two seat of the pants dyno runs (two different lads on different days) actually give a scientific result? 😉 😄
Steve R...Griff you're public have a right to know mate!
P.S. Can you remember Brad's recommended setting for the CO's running at idle and I don't give a shit about the motors carbon footprint!
P.P.S. I was going to do some modifications (machining) to the carbs on my old bevel, but I've put this on the back burner, because if the 851/916 shits itself on the dyno I'll need to use the old girl to get to work.
There's no public transport here, Nessie (who would normally drive me to work in this sort of case) can't even walk at the moment and probably won't for at least the next 4 months.
P.P.P.S. Despite all of this Nessie's very chipper at the moment, looking forward to a life without the pain she's suffered for 13 years now, since the bike accident.
griff851
Steve I don't actually know what Brad uses, but the the guys here set idle at 5%. Here is an extract from the FIM Manual, but it comes with a warning that richer is safer.
Soon Nessie will abe able to chase you around the yard with a shovel when your bad. That will be fun. Bet you didn't thick of that when you agree she should get the op done.😯
Griff
Ps Removing carbon build up, the cheap way. Spray water down the intake. An oldy but a goody. Water droplet hits the surface and is straight away turned to steam which blasts the carbon off.
Phil911
""" ... because if the 851/916 shits itself on the dyno ... '''
---> Hi Steve,
Are you deeply anxious ???
Phil911
brad black
steve
some of the 851 eproms had air temp trims that varied way too much. if you're running a hackett eprom then there's a chance it's originally based on one of duane's that he's copied and a lot of duane's had this air temp trim table.
i'd certainly be looking at that anyway, if just to eliminate it as a possible cause. without fixing that you're going to be too rich or too lean based on the conditions you have when mapping it on the dyno. i've been thru this with my 851 and duane's eproms - it'd run raggy on hot days, fine on cold days. i even moved the temp sensor up to under the lh indicator to get it out of the airbox.
if you want (and can) send me a copy of the file on the eprom i'll have a look for you.
i use 5%. you can't really go below 2% on the normal injector bikes and still have a good idle. the shower bikes can go down to 0.5% or so without going off, which is somewhat amazing given they're just spraying fuel onto a plate. can't imagine the throttle plate is hot enough to help atomise it. nothing really safe about idle mixture - it's more about misfire at the extremes. there's not enough cylinder temp of pressure to do any damage, altho the trimmer position can be indicative of overall richness or leanness on bikes with active trimmers. many of the fim p7/p8 eproms disable the idle trimmer.
Mr.R
Hi lads,
Thanks for the replies/help Griff and Brad.
Brad,
I can't supply that info, Mr Hackett supplied me with a 'baseline' chip for a 916cc motor fitted with a P8, V Two 604's, (996SPS rip offs) 54mm single injectors and a full 50mm spaghetti system.
I told him that I'd been running an FIM chip (UM 061 open piped/cans 916) and he replied that things have moved on a bit since they were made and he'd sort out something that would be a good starting point.
The chip he supplied made more power (at lower peak revs and throughout the rev range) 'out of the box' than the dialled in FIM chip, after setting up the PC III usb with this chip it then made another 6 rwbhp at the topend/redline of 9,500 rpm, duane's chip had the motor revving to 10,750 rpm with peak power coming in at 9,5-800 rpm.
I've got the air temp' sensor mounted up to the LH side of the headstock on the frame tube with a couple of cable ties, I'm running a 996SPS loom with a 996 sensors etc and a P8 ECU.
Phill,
I'm not really that worried 😯 but there's an old saying...
'Dyno's kill motors!'
So there's always the very real chance that it can happen.
John (Mr 888) Hackett of JHP's warns against chucking 851/888's on the dyno as they're getting quite old these days and the crank cases have probably suffered from a bit of fatigue by now.
My 851/916cc motors cases have covered almost 38,000 miles and most of them have been under pretty hard use.
With this in mind I'm building my 984cc project motor (I'm hoping for/expecting to get 130 rwbhp at under 10,000 rpm) using a new/unused set of ST4 C/Cases, as all of the lessons learnt from racing the 851/888/926's were incorporated into them so they're a lot stronger, but externally look very similar...
It would take a very knowledgable enthusiast/anorak to tell the difference.
Steve R
griff851
Mr.R wrotePhill,
I'm not really that worried 😯 but there's an old saying...
'Dyno's kill motors!'
So there's always the very real chance that it can happen.
John (Mr 888) Hackett of JHP's warns against chucking 851/888's on the dyno as they're getting quite old these days and the crank cases have probably suffered from a bit of fatigue by now.
Steve R
Right, and this is supposed to fill and leave my cup over flowing with confidence and effervescing desire to do a dyno run.... how?
Old old saying:- "when Yoda types speak, the meek should listen or fall victim to the dark side and the evils and perils of questing for second hand cases. "
Griff
