Mr.R
😉 Ah Griff but...
Mr Hackett also said that if it's going on the dyno then make sure that the dyno pilot knows/understands his Ducati's.
The guy I use after seeing me run out of the way when he went for a full power run (he was laughing at the time) said...
"Steve I've never blown a motor on the dyno yet, unless I really wanted to and I'm not going to start today".
He was going for a full power run using full throttle from around 2,500-3,000 rpm and I'd NEVER give the old girl the full beans unless it was revving over 5-6,000 rpm.
The bike was bucking and trying to jump out of the hold down straps before smoothing out and diving for the redline, after the 1st run/read out he then backed off the throttle as soon as it hit 9,500 which's where the 604's make their peak power.
As you know I've been building motors for years for race and road use and I've never had one let go through poor workmanship, but a couple have let go due to faulty componants.
I'm not claiming to have never made the odd cock up, but as for motors letting go that's a definite no.
I had a smallend/gudgeon pin break in half on my bevel at over 100 mph in 3rd gear, it turned out that the Arias piton's pins hade been over hardened, it broke up like toughened glass!
I sent 1/2 of the broken pin and some shrapnel back to them (keeping the other 1/2 😉 ) and they tried to blame the smallend clearence that I'd used in the Carillo's, but they supplied me with another pair of 90mm pistons FOC.
I rebuilt the motor using shortened Yamaha XS650 gudgeon pins, they're a bit heavier but they don't let go!
Steve R
Henrik
griff851 wroteRight, and this is supposed to fill and leave my cup over flowing with confidence and effervescing desire to do a dyno run.... how?
Old old saying:- "when Yoda types speak, the meek should listen or fall victim to the dark side and the evils and perils of questing for second hand cases. "
Griff
If it should blow it will and if that happens to be in the Dyno you will at least not get hurt in the process.
Come on, you have kept us for almost a year with this thread now....
Go to the Dyno!
Henrik
Mr.R
griff851 wroteSteve I don't actually know what Brad uses, but the the guys here set idle at 5%. Here is an extract from the FIM Manual, but it comes with a warning that richer is safer.
Soon Nessie will abe able to chase you around the yard with a shovel when your bad. That will be fun. Bet you didn't thick of that when you agree she should get the op done.😯
Griff
Ps Removing carbon build up, the cheap way. Spray water down the intake. An oldy but a goody. Water droplet hits the surface and is straight away turned to steam which blasts the carbon off.
Hi again Griff,
Was that extract from the FIM handbook aimed at Desmoquatro motors, big twins, singles?
What works for IL4's doesn't really suit these motors.
It seems an awful lot weaker than the settings my motors running.
(and my motors sipping fuel, over 60 mpg at 90-100 mph criusing)
As you've pointed out richer is safer, but too rich can be lumpy or wooly then at the extreme misfires set in, my motors not wooly or suffering from misfiring, in fact (with 116 rwbhp at 9,500 rpm and 67 ft lbs of torque) it goes like 'Shit of a shovel', but it's not as smooth as I'd like it to be.
Steve R
griff851
Yes Steve it was a extract from the FIM HHt handbook. Although it was aimed at desmoquattro engines, from what I have read its pretty much goes for a lot of engines. The thing is where you measure it from. The 5% at idle is at the bungs not the the end of the exh with a probe. (most dynos) Its all about density and temp. The point they use a lambda probe and where the bungs are is a similar distance on car exhausts also. I think a gas temp of around 500°. So if you have 5% at the bung, its about 7% at the exh end or something like that,as the gas has cooled and become more dense. So if you have a car and you and stick a probe in the tail pipe and tune for a lambda of 1, your not even close.
What color is your exh after a good run? White grey? Thats about the best quick check. Of coarse around town it will be darker.
Years ago on the Pantah big bore race eng, the muffler was massive. So big that the guys use to trim the bike by looking down the muffler and moving the distinct band between white and grey up or down the length of the muffler. The closer the band to the end the leaner it was.
Griff
Mr.R
Thanks Griff,
That was a help, I've copied it all down and will chat with the dyno pilot about it.
This week I removed the exhaust system and re-sealed all of the joints, the popping/banging on the overrun has all but gone now, big handfulls in a low gear then snapping the throttle shut only gives the occasional burble.
But while I was doing this I noticed that the rear pot's pipe was a very light grey inside whereas the front header was brown, I know that the rear header runs hotter as it's out of the airflow, but when the bikes running at idle/warming up, (14-1500 revs normal for 996SPS cams/light flywheel) I can actually feel with the backs of my hands at the end of the cans that the exhaust gases are hotter from the rear pot.
The spaghetti system I've got has equal length pipes for each pot, so it can't be a length thing and the ecu/PCIII is running offset mapping.
I'll rebalance the TB's tomorrow and whack in a new set of plugs.
Still as I've said it's back on the dyno on Friday morning.
Steve R
griff851
Steve either your off set is not good or you need to give less air to the rear pot when balancing the TBs or as you suspect a shyte plug. Are you using a CO meter at each bung? Or is this a question of bung what bung, I was going to put them in later.
Griff
Mr.R
Hi Griff,
No I welded in lambda bungs last year but the dyno pilot used a sniffer down the cans...
Today I wacked on the vacum gauges and it showed the TB's to be out of balance by 0.2 BAR, I'd fitted a 916 linkage so it just needed a small twiddle of the nylon nut.
The bikes smoother now but still rough around 4-5000 on small throttle openings.
At the moment I've got Champion surface discharge 916SP plugs in, they've done around 3500 miles, I've got a new pair of ND x27es-ZU's gapped at 0.6 that I'll pop in tonight at work.
I took the ITG airfilter out and cleaned it today but it's starting to fall apart, the outer corse foam is breaking up (it's over 10 years old), I've ordered a new one but it won't get here until Satuday, they've only gone up £5 in all those years.
So I'm as ready as I can be apart from filling up with 99 RON Shell V Power on the way to the dyno tomorrow morning.
Steve R
marvin
Steve,
Why such a small gap on the plugs? I gap mine out closer to 1mm, runs better and much better throttle response. most modern ignition systems will fire more than 1mm with no problems, more spark to ignite the fuel.
Some discussion on topic.
http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/ducati-superbikes/33540-2004-749s-iridium-spark-plugs.html
Mr.R
Cheers for that Marvin,
I'd read that and knew I could get away with a larger gap but couldn't remember how much bigger, so I gapped them to the recommended gap in the 916 manual.
All this year I've been using Champion surface discharge plugs which of course have no gap, (and my memory's shit!) the bike had these fitted when it made 116 rwbhp in May.
I put the ZU's in this evening and the idle speed jumped 200 rpm, with the motor feeling smoother again over this afternoons TB's balancing and clean airfilter, but it was a cold starlight night for the ride home at 1.30am (early finish on a Thusday night/Friday morning as my weekend starts now).
I've just drained the fuel tank of all but a couple of pints of the 97 RON fuel, enough to get me to the nearest petrol station selling the 99 RON Shell V Power, also used on the May dyno runs.
I'll whip out the plugs in the morning and re-gap them to the 35 thou that Larry (shazaam) recommends.
Steve R
marvin
Steve,
cool! I read somewhere or was told that the .6mm factory setting had to do with emissions somehow. Even with the standard size electrode plugs I did notice a difference in throttle response when I gapped them out to about .035". I use the NGK iridium or platinum plugs now (tiny electrodes) and gap them out about .045" (whatever that is in mm's).
Mr.R
Interesting Marvin,
The ND ZU's are platinum (fine point) tipped plugs, part of the reason that I went with the Champion's was that I didn't need to F**k about with plug gaps*, these plugs were good enough OEM for the 916,955,996 SP/SPS's all of which make more power than my humble home tuned 851/916cc motor.
*I know the way to go is to increase the gap by 2 thou at a time until a misfire sets in then go back by 2 thou for the ultimate in plug gap performace.
But usually Dyno time costs more money than I've got.
Steve R
P.S. Regarding Larry's post/comments on old leads breaking down, this's shouldn't be a problem for me as I fitted new OEM leads/caps just before the TT in June this year.
P.P.S. If the bike doesn't make/beat 116 rwbhp at 9,500 (set on the same dyno in May) I'll be a bit pissed off!
marvin
Steve,
I wouldn't go to those extremes either.
If you gap them to 1mm which is a conservative setting I think you will be good to go! I'm not sure if there is any significant difference to be seen on the dyno anyway, mostly seat of the pants throttle response I think.
brad black
we used to replace the surface discharge plugs in the 749S (the big cam stally ones) when we did the cam timing changes, fitting the normal 749/999 champion plugs (under warranty). it seemed to make them a little nicer down low.
Mr.R
Hi Brad/lads,
Well the new ZU's with 35 thou gaps and three hours on the dyno (quite a bit of time taken letting the motor/oil cool between runs) have certainly made the bike more pleasent low down, the sneezing/spitting back into the airbox that could be felt through the throttle has all but gone, I got the dyno pilot to set the CO at 5% at idle revs using the PC III, it'd been a lot lower than that before, I've had only one very much smaller sneeze (in the 50 miles I've ridden since) since, before it would do it almost every time I opened up from a closed throttle.
When I pulled the old airfilter to clean it, it was definately scorched where it runs close to the rear TB.
(New filter's arrived this morning)
The vibration/roughness at 5000 is still there though and does seem to be at a lesser extent in colder ambient temp's, could this be a airtemp' sensor problem?
If I disconnect it will the ecu fall back to a base setting?
If the rough patch gets worse or better it could prove a point.
Or perhaps I'll just bite the bullet and buy a new one, if it makes no difference I'll have got a spare to add to my collection.
Should I grease my arse and assume the position when I ask the cost?
If doing this doesn't sort it I'll fit the genuine 888 Corse flywheel Ive got as it's heavier than the alloy one I'm using to see if it smooths it out.
5000 rpm is where the 604's come on cam as I've said before the motors as smooth as a babies bum from 5,500 rpm all the way to the redline at 9,500 rpm.
It's just when holding a steady throttle at 5000 rpm on the road that the vibes become intrusive through the clipons and footrests, I've fitted heavier barend weights and may well go down the stuffing the bars full of lead route, with some big foam grips!
As I now suffer quite badly from vibration caused 'White Finger' syndrome after years of riding bikes and working with industrial airtools etc.
The dyno pilot commented on how lovely and smooth the power is, he's a big early/mid 90's era WSB fan and owns a fully race kitted Suzuka 8 hour spec RVF/RC45 which actually has Arron Slight's factory exhaust system on it.
His bikes valued at £38,000, the factory race kit forks/frontend drop cap Showa's (new old stock still in the box) cost him £18,000. 😯
And we think the cost of Corse 888 kits high!
Steve R
griff851
I believe removing the air temp sensor will just leave it at base setting, which is 25°C.
In regards to the fuzz hand, have you tried different size bar end weights. The trick is to find a weight that will harmonize with the vibration from the engine and thus cancel it out. I guess if you could hook up some vibration frequency sensor, then you could work it out. Other than that trial and error method. I have a Oberon bar end mirror fitted, and the weights of them seems to just right.
Griff
PS where's the HP torque figures? Did it make it to 116Hp or was that just a dream, like the return of the empire.😁
spike
leave the empire out of this !!!! it was a good cinema that was ,anyway steves more french than english .
spike
griff851
Is that the Norwegian coming out Spike. Sorry guys us crims study history at school. That and how to steal cars.? 😁
Griff
Mr.R
Bonjour Griff,
The power's dropped to 113 rwhbp. 🙁
I'm a bit disappointed with that, but the temp' was up on the day by 4C and it's 4000 miles since I lapped and shimmed the valves.
Apart from swapping to the ZU's from the Champion QA55V surface discharge plugs, I've not touched the motor since April except for oil/filter changes.
If I'd had a new pair of Champion's it would have been interesting to pop them in and see if they'd make a difference.
Steve R
griff851
Gyfarchiadau Steve,
temp and air pressure on the day would probably account for that drop. It was 115 HP on the first run wasn't it. Almost as good as getting 2 bloke to ride the machine on different days.😁
Does it feel smoother/better to ride after the tune?
Just for the record I'm confirmed descended from the first King of Wales, boyo's. Transported here on the second fleet. 7 years for a loaf of bread.
Seems the trip was worth it.
😁 😁 😁
sp2 boy
griff851 wroteJust for the record I'm confirmed descended from the first King of Wales, boyo's. Transported here on the second fleet. 7 years for a loaf of bread.
Seems the trip was worth it.
😁 😁 :
I would sit in the supermarket aisle stuffing my face full of bread for 24 hours and not pay, if it gave me the right to reside in the land of skin cancer and sand storms...not forgetting the big fish that will bite you for fun, 'cause we taste too bad to eat! 😯 😁
