spike
right lads this is getting abit deep for me , but a simple question is the weight given for the rods inclusive of the bolts etc or that of a bare rod so to speak ? a rough weigh of my pankl,s ( steel ) comes in at 475 ish no bolts bolts weighing 25g each , pistons , again rough weight 525 pin rings and all , i,m asuming that the rods are the standard item as the shells are down to the copper . second question steve stated that pankl bolts can be re-used is this just the ti rod ones ? and how much are new steel bolts ... so many questions
spike
Mr.R
Hiya Spike,
Griff states on his previous post that the price for the Steel Pankl's bolts comes in around 35 Euro's each.
As for the weights of your Pistons and Rods...
They're not lightweight Hi Performance motorcycle engine parts they're BOAT ANCHORS!!!
Are you sure you didn't remove them from a Hardley Ableson?
I'm now starting to realise why despite the hotter cams in the SP's they make sooo little extra power over my mildly tuned 851/916.
All that extra weight flying up and down it's no wonder the motors are fragile.
Your Steel Pankl's weigh more than standard 'H' beam 851 rods and your pistons are heavier than 916 pistons which are 2mm bigger.
Carrillo's are way lighter and my 955 Pistal pistons weigh 426, a fair bit less!
Steve R
spike
sorry steve i was only asking .. i know all you high spec race type people know this stuff , and i do humbley apolagise for the over heavy "boat anchors " flying about in my sp engine ( must swap em for some standard 851 h beam as obviously lighter is better !!!) again sorry for not spotting the price of the bolts ... silly silly sillly me must pay more attention next time . so if lighter is better why dont i just take an angle grinder to the rods and say take a nice slice off each side ... hmmmmm that,ll take a few nano grams off eh
spike
griff851
Sounds like Steve is just having a bit of fun with you mate (Scrumpy night by the sounds of it!). The answer to your question is best you don't hack into them. They will weaken, then fail. Generally they are as light as they are going to be already. And if you did hack into them you have to get shot peening and stuff done, the rod also has its own balance, which if you muck it up will be bad as well (rotation moments and other maths stuff).
The concept is pretty simple the less weight more power. The bad side is generally less life. But a reasonable balance can be achieved. The standard format is a compromise for an off the shelf bike. A race eng is good for a race, then they tear it down again.Top fuel Drag cars are a perfect example. One run, then replace pistons. You need to decide what you want, then design to achieve. But you have to be realistic. I'll try collect all the weights I can and put them in one thread for reference.
Griff
loony888
it's also interesting to note that the steel carrillo rods weigh 2 grams more at the reciprocating end than a titanium pankl. when you consider that the reciprocating mass is what calculates out to be the detrimental factor in RPM rather than the overall weight then the carrillo's represent excellent bang for the buck without the additional figuring that goes along with using a titanium rod. (squish, rod flex and stretch etc.)
paul.
Mr.R
Yes and No,
Yes I was pulling Spikes leg (In my defence he does it to me) and No I was totally sober!
I can't say the same now though, tonight I'm mostly drinking Australian Red.
But and it's a BIG But!
It's not hard these days to extract a lot more power than the factory got from the early factory race bikes and I think the weight/quality of the reciprocating parts has a lot to do with it.
The heavy conrods which were thought necessary all those years ago, have now been found not to be needed.
As for the heavy pistons, well over 35 years ago I was lightening Trident/Rocket Three pistons to help the motors rev faster, I was also fitting Ti/alloy internals at the same time...
The SP888 pistons are waaay overweight and it would be better to replace them with later items IMO.
Steve R
loony888
yeah i agree steve, with the lighter wiseco pistons i fitted and the carillo rods it was necessary to lighten the crank over half a kilo to get the dynamic balance right and when you consider the sps flywheel, and alloy clutch basket as well, there's a shade under 2 kilos lost from the reciprocating mass of my engine!
it now revs harder and faster than before, and makes more peak power and torque as well as huge gains in the midrange. as well as that it's much smoother to ride, the only trade off is a slightly higher idle.
paul.
spike
griff851 wroteSounds like Steve is just having a bit of fun with you mate (Scrumpy night by the sounds of it!). The answer to your question is best you don't hack into them.
Griff
phew good job i read the forum this morning , after " Mr R,s " verbal assault on my overweight " boat anchors " i was all set for a shift in the garage with my angle grinder ( i use a dremel to smooth off the rough edges ) i,d have had to wait mind to do the final balancing cos miss spike was doing some baking so she had first dibs on the scales , i hate it when she leaves flour all over em , and dont worry chaps i had some hamerite at the ready so the exposed material would be sealed . right seeing as though my plans for " fine engine tuning " have been scupered i,ll have to find something else to do .....hmmm i know that old corse race frame has been sat there for a while i might alter the steering geometry... if only i could find my daughters school bag she,s got one of them plastic protracters in there it should be near enough
spike
loony888
spike wrotephew good job i read the forum this morning , after " Mr R,s " verbal assault on my overweight " boat anchors " i was all set for a shift in the garage with my angle grinder ( i use a dremel to smooth off the rough edges ) i,d have had to wait mind to do the final balancing cos miss spike was doing some baking so she had first dibs on the scales , i hate it when she leaves flour all over em , and dont worry chaps i had some hamerite at the ready so the exposed material would be sealed . right seeing as though my plans for " fine engine tuning " have been scupered i,ll have to find something else to do .....hmmm i know that old corse race frame has been sat there for a while i might alter the steering geometry... if only i could find my daughters school bag she,s got one of them plastic protracters in there it should be near enough
spike
geez spike!
you don't work for a duke dealer here in brissie do you?😏
griff851
Steve I'm making you an honorary Australian citizen. As you are aware we are in a global credit crisis. Our dirt based commodities have fallen in value, resulting in the average female citizen now struggling to find the extra cash to get their BMW X-5's washed once a week. Buy drinking our wine, this crisis well may be avoided. Many women give their heart felt thanks! They will probably agree nationally to let you have your way, with anyone of them. (Provided you buy the ticket and promise to fly Qantas) 😁
Ps Spike my wife uses hers for veggies mainly (I'm a caring guy, so I used paper towel). I tried the bathroom ones but the kids soaked them and they're shot. Adapt, improvise, overcome. I do however have a proper inclinometer, as well a plastic protractor.
PPS Steady Paul, I have a Corporate shirt now, and I'm not afraid to use it. I earned it in the great Sales push of 2008 at the Sirromet Winery (ha ha). 355 test rides, 19 bikes, 4 teams (shops), 2 days.
Griff
Mr.R
Thanks Griff,
With the amount of Aussie red I've necked over the years, I should have a stable of top class Aussie crumpet by now...
Mind you I've found my way into a few English girls ahem 'affections' after sharing the odd bottle of the red nectar with them.
Not Mrs R though she likes white wine.
On the pulling Spikes leg front.
He once signed off a post on another Duke based forum with these words...
"If I'm right then my names Spike, if it all turns out to be Bollox then my names Mr R".
He who lives by the sword dies by the sword, in my book!
Steve R
spike
teee heee heee !! i thought it was a good idea at the time .......in fact i still do .
spike😁
griff851
Spike I once "cleaned up" a set of rods for a V8 Cleveland, then got them balance by a mate in turbine blade refurbishment section, then got them shot peened. Motor went well, but crashed the car 2 weeks later.
Conclusion: Grinding causes accidents. Or shot peening affects your driving. What more can I say.
Griff
loony888
griff851 wrotePPS Steady Paul, I have a Corporate shirt now, and I'm not afraid to use it. I earned it in the great Sales push of 2008 at the Sirromet Winery (ha ha). 355 test rides, 19 bikes, 4 teams (shops), 2 days.
Griff
err, so?😏
griff851
Just joking, sorry Paul I forgot the 😁
Griff
loony888
ahh, i see.
that's a lot of effort for a shirt!!! please tell me you got more than that out of it? or are the local dealers still crying poor?
paul.
griff851
Not that it has any thing to do with con rods, but I got a name badge as well.
Strange as it seems I don't get paid, because of a several reasons. I've been doing it for over 6 years now.
1. I actually don't mind helping out a mate. I help Bevan when I can as well.(there isn't as much money in the game as you seem to think. Trust me I've seen the books, as I have been involved in all facets of the shops operation. Even discussing the pricing of everything we sell. Small business is hard.)
2. It gets me out of the house and away from the kids (stay at home dad), and I get to chat to different people about bikes.
3. I get a chance to help people buy a bike and not be tainted by commission etc, so the buyer gets the best chance at getting on the right bike for them. It also means I'm not applying pressure for the sale which makes the experience so much nicer, and they don't walk away with a head full of shit. Also I get a chance to recommended to some guys (Crap riders) that if they want to live they really should do some courses or something. Or buy a cheap machine and get some miles up, then come back if they are still keen, and not get sacked for doing it.
4. I get to test ride the latest models as soon as they arrive.
5. I can get access to all sorts of info through the dealership network, which comes in handy.
6. I get to stand around drink coffee and smoke fags and talk bikes in the workshop with friends and not be a burden to the operation.
7.I get to pass on stuff that I have learnt over the years and here to the apprentices and even Bob
8. I have access to a lath and a mill.
9. I get to go to Corporate events, bike shows, and races for nothing, usually with the best views and food. Including photo shoots with models etc.
So why would I want money as well!
Griff
griff851
Well the rods arrived today. I took them off the crank and weighed them, same as Pankl steel. They are indeed just a funny gold color. So much for all of that. Thank you guys for your input. It was fun to dream. I can't complain, I have a good SP4 crank now. I'm going to get a 900ss one as well for later on, so when I get over HP, I change over to massive torque.
I am also in possession of a full set of 'G' cams now, both inlet and exhaust. I had a slight misunderstanding with communication with 996sps/916sps and 916sp. whether I keep them I'm not sure yet. I wanted 996sps cams as they don't have the tacho drive, I want to reconfigure the cooling hose set up. More thinking required.
Griff
loony888
nice work, maybe the gold colour is from an engine additive, i've seen nulon and slick50 stain components a funny gold/yellow colour, but never evenly so probably not.
the 916SPS and 996SPS are the same cams you know?
the 916SP has "G" inlets and "A" exhausts same as the SP5 except for the lack of tach drive.
paul.
griff851
yes Paul and I've edited the thread by removing the comer and putting in a slash. The cams I have are defiantly a mix up. I have a tacho drive set of G inlets and G exhausts. 888sp5,916sp cams are G & A, 996sps/916sps race engines are 431 & G. Thanks Brad.
Griff
