Rear Tyre size for a 6" rim?

Mr.R

stafford wroteWill a 190 miss the chain?

The ST4S swinging arm moves the rear sprocket outwards by at least 5mm, when used in combination with a later longer 748, 916, 996 etc output shaft.
There should easily be enough clearance for a 190 or 200 rear tyre.

Steve R

marvin

Damn Steve ! No wonder it's so light!!
p.s. Did you have to stress relieve the internal gears when you drilled them?

Mr.R

marvin wroteDamn Steve ! No wonder it's so light!! p.s. Did you have to stress relieve the internal gears when you drilled them?

I'll be honest here Marvin,
I shipped them out to a specialist company following a recommendation from a trusted friend/race engine builder.
I'm pretty sure that they spark eroded the holes.
I was toying with the idea of buying a new NOVA cluster, but they're close to £3,000.😯

I spent this afternoon scalloping out the ST4S swinging arm to miss the 50mm Spaghetti header on the rear pot.
Lots of taking off, filing, re-fitting, marking where it fouls, removing, filing over and over again and then finally polishing the result.
You can always take some more out, but it's not so easy to put it back.
I started at around 12 o'clock/lunchtime and was finally satisfied that the job was OK at 18.30.
6 and 1/2 hours just to sort out that little problem.

Steve R

Mr.R

Well I've finally pulled the trigger and...
Today I've ordered a new pair of "Made to order" Classic Marvic Streamline hollow spoke Magnesium wheels.
They should be with be just after Christmas. BUGGER I'd hoped for them to be here loooong before that.
Don't ask me how much they cost, but I could have bought a 1/2 decent Track day bike for a lot less cash!
They're 3.50"/17 front with 20mm spindle to suit a 888 and 6"/17 wide with a 25mm spindle rear to fit a ST4S swinging arm.
I can't wait for them to arrive. 😁
Once they're here I can get the rolling chassis up to Maidstone Moto Liner to get the frame checked/corrected, before getting it powdered coated.
So that's another step towards getting possibly the lightest 851/888 on the road for next Spring.

Steve R

dudlington

Quote Mr R :So that's another step towards getting possibly the lightest 851/888 on the road for next Spring.

Now that is a bold claim..........be careful because some of us are not using the old type engines but much newer engines (1198S). These babies are at least 10 Kg lighter than the older type , possibly more.

Could there possibly be some kind of meet up and some kind of weigh in ?.

I,m definately up for that , I,ll even put back the Lithium iron battery for that.

I,m sure I will win on the HP and Torque figures.

Just for reference , this bike feels a lot lighter than my Panigale 1199S when moving it around and fully road legal.

Mr.R

Fair play Paul,

But I did state earlier my personal target was to build a 851/888 using a Desmoquatro with 851/888 head stud pattern, weighing in at around 360 lbs fully wet.
...and not using a 996 stud spacing motor.
I've been aiming to build this bike with more power than a 926 Corse at under 9,500 rpm and close to the same weight, despite it having a starter system and road legal lights.
It would have been a lot easier to just slot in a 996 or Testastretta motor of whatever size 999/1098/1198.
But (as I've posted before) where's the challenge in that?
This little project of mine has involved building a motor from a collection of parts (gathered together over quite a few years), then modifying/tuning them to get to the end result.
As I've already posted/said before bolting a later motor into this project would (for me) see it no longer being a "Pukka" 851/888.
This is not to say that other forum members projects are any lesser, it's just that it wasn't the way that I wanted to go.
If I manage to hit my targets? I'll be pretty chuffed and more than happy to ride it to any get together/weigh in.
I'd be very surprised if any other "Genuine" hopped up 851/888 kicks out as much power (at under 9,500 rpm) or weighs as little as this one does.
If only Mark T could bring over his PUKKA AMA 955 ex works Corse from the States, this bike was my ultimate target.
I'd love to compare what I've managed to obtain in my garden shed with what Elrado Ferraci could turn out.
BIG TALK??? But I'm prepared to Walk the Walk...

Steve R

marvin

Steve,

I was talking with Mark the other day asking about weights. He said that the early corse bikes weighed in around 310-320 lbs. the later bikes were heavier because the rules dictated a minimum weight so the later bikes had lead weights on them

Mr.R

Hi Marvin,

I'm 100% certain that I can't get it down to that level.
My original target was the claimed weight of the customer 888 Corse bikes, that were meant to be 350 lbs.
Of course the Works bikes were quite a bit lighter, they had quite a few very special parts.
Amongst my collection of parts are a complete set of Works Titanium rocker spindles, these were claimed to only have been used in the Roche factory bike.
A claim that I've no reason to doubt?
I'm fairly sure that the customer machines didn't have them.
I think they weren't fitted as by the time they would have filtered down to the customer bikes the rules had already been changed, causing the factory bikes to need to have lead weights added to them.

Steve R

dudlington

MR R.

I often thought about putting the front wheel and then the rear wheel on the bathroom scales to get an indication. If you also did the same then we could compare.

As for putting an 1198 engine in a 851 frame (Where,s the challenge in that ?) , well the frame was modified to give the swinging arm support . The swinging arm was modified to put bearings in it. The exhaust was hand built and the airbox was made from scratch with nothing to copy. The airbox alone was 150 hours. The fuel tank is Carbon and built from scratch to accept an 1198 fuel pump assembly. Something else that cost more than 150 hours of searching , scratching , and modifying was the ability to have a neutral switch. The speedo pick had to have some engineering involved as there was nothing off the shelf. The top and bottom yokes were machined for the larger forks .The engine was still completely rebuilt from scratch (Multistrada bottom/1198S top end) and the bike was also built using the best materials available with an eye to make it look as standard as possible. It is easy to say where is the challenge in that but trust me unless you have done it , it is very difficult to explain to someone who has not done it where the 1000 + hours went into building the bike. I would not be so quick to think that it is easy. Treading a path no one has trodden before is always more time consuming and a lot more risky. Specials are not for the faint hearted.

nine16

Mr.R wroteAmongst my collection of parts are a complete set of Works Titanium rocker spindles, these were claimed to only have been used in the Roche factory bike. A claim that I've no reason to doubt?

Nah, I've seen titanium rocker pins with TiN coating before, brand new and in decent quantities. I was going to use a set in my build (996--cheating 😄 ) but then I realized that not knowing the long term reliability (galling?), it would be a stupid place to try to save a few grams.

dudlington wroteAs for putting an 1198 engine in a 851 frame (Where,s the challenge in that ?) , well the frame was modified to give the swinging arm support . The swinging arm was modified to put bearings in it. The exhaust was hand built and the airbox was made from scratch with nothing to copy. The airbox alone was 150 hours. The fuel tank is Carbon and built from scratch to accept an 1198 fuel pump assembly. Something else that cost more than 150 hours of searching , scratching , and modifying was the ability to have a neutral switch. The speedo pick had to have some engineering involved as there was nothing off the shelf. The top and bottom yokes were machined for the larger forks .The engine was still completely rebuilt from scratch (Multistrada bottom/1198S top end) and the bike was also built using the best materials available with an eye to make it look as standard as possible. It is easy to say where is the challenge in that but trust me unless you have done it , it is very difficult to explain to someone who has not done it where the 1000 + hours went into building the bike. I would not be so quick to think that it is easy. Treading a path no one has trodden before is always more time consuming and a lot more risky. Specials are not for the faint hearted.

You can say that again about specials. And compared to both of you I took the easy way. I would love to do an 888/1198 build though...

Mr.R

dudlington wroteMR R. I often thought about putting the front wheel and then the rear wheel on the bathroom scales to get an indication. If you also did the same then we could compare. As for putting an 1198 engine in a 851 frame (Where,s the challenge in that ?) , well the frame was modified to give the swinging arm support . The swinging arm was modified to put bearings in it. The exhaust was hand built and the airbox was made from scratch with nothing to copy. The airbox alone was 150 hours. The fuel tank is Carbon and built from scratch to accept an 1198 fuel pump assembly. Something else that cost more than 150 hours of searching , scratching , and modifying was the ability to have a neutral switch. The speedo pick had to have some engineering involved as there was nothing off the shelf. The top and bottom yokes were machined for the larger forks .The engine was still completely rebuilt from scratch (Multistrada bottom/1198S top end) and the bike was also built using the best materials available with an eye to make it look as standard as possible. It is easy to say where is the challenge in that but trust me unless you have done it , it is very difficult to explain to someone who has not done it where the 1000 + hours went into building the bike. I would not be so quick to think that it is easy. Treading a path no one has trodden before is always more time consuming and a lot more risky. Specials are not for the faint hearted.

Hi Paul,

I wasn't belittling your efforts, in fact I'm very impressed with what you've done/built.
It's just that what you've achieved isn't for me.
As for the amount of hours that go into building our/your own personal special, I well understand what it takes.
Since I semi retired I've no longer any access to welding kit, so today after my day at work I set off on a 30+ mile round trip (on my old MZ 2 Stroke) to get a couple of lugs welded to my 50mm Spaghetti system.
30 odd miles worth of petrol and a £10 note in the artisans pocket later "Job Done".
I'll never get that money back but I've now got an exhaust system that fits with the new/modified ST4S swinging arm.
In the future almost anyone apart from a 851/888 "Anorak" will never notice what's been done but...
I will and for me that's all that counts to me.

Steve R

dudlington

Mr.R wroteHi Paul, I wasn't belittling your efforts, in fact I'm very impressed with what you've done/built. It's just that what you've achieved isn't for me. As for the amount of hours that go into building our/your own personal special, I well understand what it takes. I've no longer any access to welding kit, so today after my day at work I set off on a 30+ mile round trip to get a couple of lugs welded to my 50mm Spaghetti system. 30 miles worth of petrol and a £10 note in the artisans pocket, I'll never get that money back but I've now got an exhaust system that fits with the new/modified ST4S swinging arm. In the future almost anyone apart from a 851/888 "Anorak" will never notice what's been done but... I will and for me that's all that counts. Steve R

Yes it all takes time , including the head scratching , all those trips to get material , welders , drawings , ebay and all not really knowing if it will all be a dogs dinner in the end. Personally I love the old shape , new technology thing (Sleeper aspect) , it certainly suprises a few people which puts a bigger grin on my face when I zip past them.

For me building a grenade of a motor , that would require a team of people/technology beyond my garage to keep it constantly going is personally not my thing. I hope to get 50,000 Km out of my Engine with relatively long service intervals in between and still have some money in the Bank account.......can you say the same ?.

It is all good that we are different and still on 2 wheels , pushing some limits , but it is only for us. If you are the same as I am we are our own worse enemy , beating ourselves up all the time over little stuff...........however it is nice when it all comes together. My 888 SP4 with the Testerstretta Engine was 10 years in the making only because I kept putting it down thinking this is beyond my ability/means. However love hate , hate love it came good in the end.

Good luck with your build , please share the dyno charts and the weight (Kitchen scales ?). You have now got me aching to find out what mine weighs in comparison to the race stuff.........and of course if it is heavier I will beat myself up and loose some kilos on the bike and probably a few of the useless 85 Kgs I lazily lug around every day.

Mr.R

Thanks for that Paul,

I almost agree with everything that you've posted apart from this...
Building a Hand Grenade???
I've built this motor to make peak power at lower revs than a standard 851/888SP, the aim is to get more power per rev and not more revs = power.
So "G" or 431 and G Corse cams aren't in the mix, as they make very good power at the expense of very high revs and a short lived motor...and there for me is the challenge.
I'll be gutted if this motor doesn't make close to 140 rwbhp at under 9,500 rpm and over 80 ft lbs of torque.
Which should put it very close to your standard 1098 motor, but with 150cc less, smaller valves and it's still a Desmoquatro with 851/888 stud spacing.

Steve R

dudlington

Mr.R wroteThanks for that Paul, I almost agree with everything that you've posted apart from this... Building a Hand Grenade??? I've built this motor to make peak power at lower revs than a standard 851/888SP, the aim is to get more power per rev and not more revs = power. So "G" or 431 and G Corse cams aren't in the mix, as they make very good power at the expense of very high revs and a short lived motor...and there for me is the challenge. I'll be gutted if this motor doesn't make close to 140 rwbhp at under 9,500 rpm and over 80 ft lbs of torque. Which should put it very close to your standard 1098 motor, but with 150cc less, smaller valves and it's still a Desmoquatro with 851/888 stud spacing. Steve R

Steve I hate to disappoint you but my engine is a tuned 1198S engine making close to 170 Hp @ 9500 rpm and 102 ft/lbs @8000 rpm @ THE REAR WHEEL. It is currently running the single injection unit , however I have the twin injection unit that is staring at me everytime I go in the garage begging me to fit it. It WILL bring another 10 Hp but I can,t use what I have .I am sorry to say , throw all the money and effort you want in the world at your engine it is not possible to keep up with the modern stuff Ducati is chucking out these days . Your route is a ticking time bomb.................things have moved on big time........and as the yanks say : There an,t no substitute for CC,s. I have a Panigale 1199S as well and ride it hard (Luckily it has electronics that save me when I mess up) but I am sure when I ride a V4 Panigale and feel all those 13000- 14000 rpm I will buy one.

No disrepect but I have 888,s in engine sizes of 888 , 955 , 984 , 996 , 1036 and 1198 capacity. I know which one is the fastest by a long way............it is also the lightest by a long way as well , it feels close to the weight of my R91.

Steve :I think I,m going to have to buy one of these babies. Base is 30cm x 40 cm so big enough to put the front/rear wheel on...........and they send to Belgium.

dudlington

Steve R

I have now bought a heavy duty weigh scale so I shall post the weights I see from the front wheel on and the rear wheel on. Add both weights together and that will be pretty close. I will see if I can get my standard SP4 out of the garage to use as a reference to what Ducati posted. No fuel but oil and water. You have me wondering how heavy/light it really is.

marvin

Steve,

You can't get away from the fact that the testastretta heads have an incuded valve angle of 25 degrees, The old desmoqwuattro heads had an included valve angle of 40 degrees. There ain't no way you can build an engine with those old heads and come up with the same HP/torque figures. Those old heads won't flow as much, no matter how much you do to them or how large the valves are. Sorry!

Mr.R

No need to say sorry Marvin, I'm aware of the differences between the 2 types of heads.
When the 999R's (road) were launched they made around 143 rwbhp, the standard 1098's despite all the hype were "only" making in the mid too high 140's.
Forum members on here have up specked 996's making as much as high 140's.
The 996RS that Troy Bayliss won the British Super Bike title was kicking out 169 rwbhp, although those factory spec 996 RS's really were one weekend specials, with any more miles making them a hand grenade with the pin 1/2 way out.
926cc 888 Corse's made around 136 rwbhp and the 916R (race) actually 955cc's made 150+ rwbhp.
So I think my target of 140 rwbhp and 80ftlb from a 955cc Desmoquatro motor isn't completely out of the question.
Of course if I'm wrong and it only makes 136 or so, I'll put my hand up and tell it on here.

Steve R

Mr.R

dudlington wroteSteve R I have now bought a heavy duty weigh scale so I shall post the weights I see from the front wheel on and the rear wheel on. Add both weights together and that will be pretty close. I will see if I can get my standard SP4 out of the garage to use as a reference to what Ducati posted. No fuel but oil and water. You have me wondering how heavy/light it really is.

Hi Paul,
Great I'd also like to know that.
When I take my bikes to my local MOT station for their yearly road safety test, the tester weighs the front and rear (in the way that you've posted) to get the correct weight before putting the bike on the Brake Test rollers.

Steve R

dudlington

My 999R (2004) which only has the 57mm Termignoni, open filter and race ECU makes 149 rwhp(so standard). My tuned 998R makes 155 rwhp , my 1036cc 888 SP4 makes 165 rwhp. These all have Testerstretta engines and are used on the road (Not built for track). No problem with reiability so far. This was a big step forward in development from the previous engines. When the 1098 series of engines came along there was another leap..........however these engines can produce up to 180 rwhp reliably (my Bayliss 1098R makes that as it has the twin injection unit per cyclinder, 70mm Termignoni blaa blaa blaa, but standard factory engine for the road). Now the Panigale S I have with only Termignoni , race filter and reprogrammed software has 190 rwhp (Road bike). The V4 has apparently over 200 rwhp for the road. There is a trend here and quite rightly so or the the race program at Ducati has been wasting hundreds of millions of euros. The major changes has been at the top of the engine and in the electronics to flow more fuel and air. The pressureised airboxs are there to feed/force more air so that more fuel can flow. Throwing more and more fuel down the cylinders only works to a point.However there have been improvements in friction, the way the oil flows through the engine. Weight has been shaved in many many areas....................however the older the engine the more roadblocks you will encounter in its design. Some of these roadblocks cannot be fixed as they are inherent faults that were not known/or did not have the budget at the time to fix. Ducati now is a massive company , owned by a massive Automotive giant with a significantly larger budget/resource than the little company that designed the older engines of the 80,s and 90,s...............These statements above are not a personal dig at anyone and not meant to cause pain , but there is only so much someone can do in their garage with old technology/designs. The internet has opened our world and made it easier to get the info/parts we need .I know as I,m constantly in my garage/on the internet and am still constantly frustrated. I am sure most on this forum know this but the significance of where Ducati is now and who is backing them is huge and more progress will happen. I wonder how far Ducati can go with these Petrol engines ?.

Steve R you should get 140 rwhp out of your 955cc engine , if you get it below 9500 rpm is another story. 80 fl/lbs should also be possible. Please post your dyno chart and your spec sheet for us all to learn from. You made a challenge on the weight front so please post the weight as well. Personally I like the challenge of knowing who might have the lightest road 888 (Albiet modified). My weights will come soon.

Maybe I should add : There is someone I know who has fitted Noriyuki Haga,s 1198 , 2008 race engine into a 851 chassis and made a race monster..............apparently on the dyno it makes 195 rwhp (For how long is a question). I was offered this bike to buy as it is up for sale..............however it is 30K euros. Now I think that might be the craziests , lightest race 851/888 on the planet...........but also unuseable !!!!.

dudlington

Mr.R wroteHi Paul, Great I'd also like to know that. When I take my bikes to my local MOT station for their yearly road safety test, the tester weighs the front and rear (in the way that you've posted) to get the correct weight before putting the bike on the Brake Test rollers. Steve R

Steve do you have the weights/history please , something to start from.

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