Classic TT Build

Pompey

Great news, does that mean I get the guess the power prize?😉

SpeedTherapy

Pompey wroteGreat news, does that mean I get the guess the power prize?😉

Yep - you're pretty close with your 109 and around 110.

Knowing the approximate bhp does help a bit with initial gearing. I'm thinking with those extra few ponies, I may be able to run a gearing slightly longer than standard... could eeek out a few extra mph down those long straights and still have enough to pull nicely... and run everything slightly lower on the old rpm which can only be good for reliability. But, you never know... there are a kazillion factors... just gotta get out there and give it a go!

Mr.R

Well I watched the video and squinted at the paused graph, I even put on my reading glasses.
I must say it sounded crisp.
But noticed that the power was rolled off at 10,000 rpm, Strada's rev to 10K SP's rev to 11K and usually make their peak power at 10K+.
That's why they come fitted with Pankle race conrods with 21mm smallends , so that they can stand the higher rev ceiling.
So I call foul on the guess my HP game. 😏

So once again Steve just laughed and avoided the question as to why he fitted a 916 chip???
Brad or Doug would/should be able to tell us if a chip intended for a 66mm stroke would work better in a 64mm stroke motor, than one intended for a 64mm stroke.
Can you adjust the ignition map on a FIM chip as well as the fueling?

Even without measuring the stroke of the built motor, it's possible to tell if it's been fitted with a longer stroke crank, as the 94mm pistons for either a 888 or 916 have 1mm different heights from the gudgeon pins to the top on the squish height than each other. 😉

Can you post up the final run power graph, I'd like to see how it goes/pulls from the bottom to the top and not just how it pulls from 8-10K.
You won't be exiting the slower corners at 8,000 rpm after all Paul.

Edit...Is the later style radial front brake m/cylinder allowed under the rules? It's obviously not a period part.

Steve R

SpeedTherapy

Mr.R wroteWell I watched the video and squinted at the paused graph, I even put on my reading glasses. I must say it sounded crisp. But noticed that the power was rolled off at 10,000 rpm, Strada's rev to 10K SP's rev to 11K and usually make their peak power at 10K+. That's why they come fitted with Pankle race conrods with 21mm smallends , so that they can stand the higher rev ceiling. So I call foul on the guess my HP game. 😏 So once again Steve just laughed and avoided the question as to why he fitted a 916 chip??? Brad or Doug would/should be able to tell us if a chip intended for a 66mm stroke would work better in a 64mm stroke motor, than one intended for a 64mm stroke. Can you adjust the ignition map on a FIM chip as well as the fueling? Even without measuring the stroke of the built motor, it's possible to tell if it's been fitted with a longer stroke crank, as the 94mm pistons for either a 888 or 916 have 1mm different heights from the gudgeon pins to the top on the squish height than each other. 😉 Can you post up the final run power graph, I'd like to see how it goes/pulls from the bottom to the top and not just how it pulls from 8-10K. You won't be exiting the slower corners at 8,000 rpm after all Paul. Edit...Is the later style radial front brake m/cylinder allowed under the rules? It's obviously not a period part. Steve R

Hi Steve

Lol - the dyno can of worms is open!

Yes, you spotted correctly. Only revved the beast up to 10k. So she may have a few more to give, but this isn't a bhp competition... the engine has to be able to do around 450 miles of being hammered. I had decided beforehand that 10k would be the limit - would need to fit an aftermarket rev limiter to ensure that... but am outta time on that one... so will use the wrist instead.

I think that in Steve's vast experience, the chip he used best fits the engine build, components and setup he's done. I trust his judgement. There is no bigger or longer anything - gonna have to trust me on that. Besides the vernier pullies for easier setup (the original pullies are ally too) - everything else in the engine is 100% like it came from the factory.

Although strictly not a period part, the rules on brakes are:
1.19 BRAKES
Free choice of brake caliper and master cylinder (including radial master cylinders but excluding radial calipers and carbon-fibre brakes)
If I had time and any money left, I'd go for a period Brembo radial or one of those neat AP pieces. Maybe over the winder I'll do that (my Aprilia is just loaning the part...).

I'll get that dyno chart up soon...

Ciao

Paul

SpeedTherapy

Dyno Chart

Hi All

Here are some dyno graphs to analize (and draw your own conclusions from!). I don't know a lot about dyno's and all the complexities around them and I know that numbers can sometimes be misleading.

The purpose of the dyno runs was to get the setup right. That was achieved and the 'hole' between 6500 and 7500 was filled in nicely. She was running a bit lean. This will also not help reliability and is now sorted.

The graphs also help me as a rider know where the power is and where I should keep the engine revving. Especially helpful on short circuit racing where you'll be gearing for overall max performance (corners and straights). For the IOM you generally want to gear as long as you can as long as your bike can pull those revs (balanced against having enough 'go' coming out of the turns... especially steep up-hills like Waterworks 2 and Gooseneck). Always bearing in mind that generally more revs = more strain on components = less reliability.

As stated in a previous post, the bike was only revved to 10k on the dyno. The bhp figure is just an interesting consequence. No point knackering your race engine before the race so you can have some bhp bragging numbers!

Another pleasing consequence is that I know the standard P7 ECU and chip is still making decent power and can be used as a backup if needed.
😎

Now I just got to finish the bike off and ride it!
Ciao
Paul

Red line is final setup. Slightly down on power because the throttle off at 9900rpm. Look at that 10bhp gain from 6500 to 7500 :-)

Interesting speed run with the peak at 111.5bhp.

brad black

ime the a cam bikes don't make much more power over 10k. the 3 I have played with have all peaked at 9k. maybe they will come back over 10,5, but I wouldn't be revving it to find out. the g or u1 (748sps) cam, with an extra 1mm or so lift, makes a big difference. although the ones of them I have played with have generally similarly peaked around 9, troughed at 10 or so them climbed again. although they're all 916 chassis bikes, and that exhaust is too long i'm told, so maybe that has an impact.

I've only dyno'd 1 sp5, but it seemed pretty linear above 8 and kept climbing past anything the 916sp have made to still be climbing at 10,750. don't recall what I set the timing to on that, but it would have been inlet centreline mid 90 or so I think. actually, from memory, I think it was clearance limited much sooner than a 916sp.

so peak under 10k I see as normal for model for sp2/3/4. and good too. limiter wise the manuals all show 11 as max rpm, but i'm sure that are set lower than that. highest rpm break is 10,5, and I think the limiter is lower than that. even the sp5 seems to be set at 10,686, whereas its highest rpm break is 11k.

081 limiter appears to be 11,615, and back on at 11,265. so it'll be a brick wall and then big bang back on if you hit it. I set my 851 limiter off/on about 50 rpm or less apart and you couldn't even tell you'd hit it. it just stopped revving.

in one of the photos there's an ecu with um08x on it, so I assume it has a 916sp eprom in it. there is very little difference spark map wise between capacities. much more difference between strada cam and sp cam though, for both 888 and 916.

the strada cam 888 and 916 eprom spark maps are much the same, esp at part throttle. in fact, I think the 916 has one break point changed, but the actual map # are mostly a cut and paste from 888 sort of thing. so it varies by the rpm one map line occurs at, not by what's on the map line so to speak.

sp5 vs 916sp is much the same. they both have a lot more part thr adv than the strada eproms and a little more wot adv. they need it, due to the cams killing part thr and lower rpm cylinder pressure. although you could pull some of that back at the top end wot and it might make more power on a dyno, esp with the squish set. sp5 has 5 or so more degrees adv at wot above 5k or so except at 10k, so the 916sp eprom is probably a better choice. dyno power at 10k might be hurt by the 46 degrees adv there.

so, steve, let the 916 chip thing go. nothing to see.

brad black

the peaks on the all gears graph are irrelevant, it picks up the spikes. I don't see why they use those runs. your single gear graph is the one to look at, and the # to claim.

I'd rather it richer over 8,5 and under 6 with the p8, as it is getting back up to 14:1 at the very top end. the all gears run shows it spends most of its time over 13.5:1 and i'd shoot for 12.8 or so. so i'd be adding another 7 - 10% to it personally.

but I certainly wouldn't use the p7. the length of time you'll be holding it open in places won't be nice to it.

the close ratio box may compromise your gearing somewhat, you'll have to gear it to keep you rpm down on the fastest bits and it might end up a bit high on the slowest, without knowing what your actual speeds will be. pity the limiter isn't lower so you wouldn't have to concentrate on the rpm.

SpeedTherapy

Update...

Just got these puppies from Mode Performance - as used in World Superbikes... they're 'quick bleed' nipples. We'll see if they end my woes...

SpeedTherapy

Qick Question - Oil Light

Hi Folks

Does anyone know the pins on the dash plug (male) that I need to wire an Oil light into?
My bike has different colors to the ones in my wiring diagram 🙁

Thanks!

Ciao

Paul

duc904red

Multi meter on the sender end and look for continuity the other end
The other only needs a live+
Regards Steve

Mr.R

Hi Paul,
I just blank off the pressure switch on my motors, the factory never fitted them to the Corse engines.
Lets face it here if they actually told the truth (didn't, fail, tell lies or leak oil) it would be time for an engine strip anyway and...
You'll soon know if you've had a catastrophic loss in oil pressure. 😏

Steve R

SpeedTherapy

Mr.R wroteHi Paul, I just blank off the pressure switch on my motors, the factory never fitted them to the Corse engines. Lets face it here if they actually told the truth (didn't, fail, tell lies or leak oil) it would be time for an engine strip anyway and... You'll soon know if you've had a catastrophic loss in oil pressure. 😏 Steve R

True... but having a few seconds warning would be good. The Corse riders also didn't have to pay for repairing the engines so I guess they'd hold them full throttle till they stop.

SpeedTherapy

duc904red wroteMulti meter on the sender end and look for continuity the other end The other only needs a live+ Regards Steve

Thanks - got it. The switch is just an earth... I was looking for a positive and thinking it more complex than it is! Still getting to grips with wiring/electrics. Have the idea of building a full race-loom this winter... yeah... right!

duc904red

Hi Pete
There is an oil pressure switch from a volkswagen van LT? that will trigger at 25 psi
Screws right in -would give you more warning
Regards Steve B

Mr.R

Paul,
The oil pressure switches are very unreliable/they tell lies.
When the 1st one failed on my '92 851, the light came on and stayed on and I thought OH SHIT!
But the bike didn't start knocking or go bang so I replaced the switch.
When the next one failed I was a over a couple of hundred miles from home, so I carried on carefully, listening, waiting and feeling for any bad signs, 20 or 30 miles up the road and still nothing bad had happened, so I hammered the tits out of the bike for the last 200 miles home, the bike was still running as crisp as ever.
So when I got home I took the POS off and threw it in the bin.
The big ends in your SP2 are the same as those fitted to the 169 rwbhp 996 that Troy Bayliss took the BSB Championship on, that bike IIRC? never suffered from any big end failures despite revving a lot higher than10K.
They're pretty much bullet proof.
A search of the web will turn up dozens of pressure switch failures, but very few big end failures.

Steve R

SpeedTherapy

Mr.R wrotePaul, The oil pressure switches are very unreliable/they tell lies. When the 1st one failed on my '92 851, the light came on and stayed on and I thought OH SHIT! But the bike didn't start knocking or go bang so I replaced the switch. When the next one failed I was a over a couple of hundred miles from home, so I carried on carefully, listening, waiting and feeling for any bad signs, 20 or 30 miles up the road and still nothing bad had happened, so I hammered the tits out of the bike for the last 200 miles home, the bike was still running as crisp as ever. So when I got home I took the POS off and threw it in the bin. The big ends in your SP2 are the same as those fitted to the 169 rwbhp 996 that Troy Bayliss took the BSB Championship on, that bike IIRC? never suffered from any big end failures despite revving a lot higher than10K. They're pretty much bullet proof. A search of the web will turn up dozens of pressure switch failures, but very few big end failures. Steve R

Hi Steve

Hmmm... good point. Now that I think back on my experience...

I had a switch pack-up and leak oil everywhere on a track-weekend in Jerez many years ago. Luckily I had a spare bike handy.
I had a another pack up on me on a later model Aprilia during a test at Mallory. The bike went into limp mode. Took many phone-calls and missing half the sessions to figure it out. Unplugged the switch and hey-presto!
Had an oil light flicker on at 2006 ManxGP as I approached Governor's on a 748bi. It was the bike's first lap so I hit the kill switch and pulled up. Too late... damage was done and the engine was poked (it had run the big-ends... it was just a standard bike that I took a chance with... I think it came from a bad home and was previously abused).

So perhaps you're right... more trouble than they're worth.

Besides... without an oil light it will be more of a pukka race bike ;-) AND I don't have to do any wiring/fitting :-)

Do you know what lights did the Corse bike have?

Thinking a Neutral light is handy... mostly so that you know if the ignition is on.

Ciao

Paul

hauge

I'm on my third switch on my 748R. two of them have started to leak after riding with flashing red light. I have now replaced yhe swich with a screw.
The only thing they do is that they warn you for a leak in the switch....

Mr.R

Paul,
All the Corse bikes that I've seen haven't had any "Idiot" lights, they usually just have a water temp' gauge, rev counter and an on/off switch.

Edit...I'd ditch the OEM ign' switch/key and fit a marine quality on/off toggle switch.

The neutral lights are about as reliable as the oil pressure switches, so I think you can guess where mines is?

You could wire in a small light to tell you when the ignitions on, for your own peace of mind.
I've got one of these, but haven't got around to fitting it yet...😏
I got hold of it because I don't want my expensive Ballistic battery going tits up, (if/when the reg/rec died) you wire them in so that they only come on when the ignitions turned on.

Steve R

stafford

Mine leaked on the 748 (probably from crash damage) so it's been replaced by one for a VW van, as it's a different design hopefully it won't leak (well it hasn't yet) . Cost about £4.

SpeedTherapy

Cheeky Road Test

Work has been busting my balls the last few weeks... and with the challenges of this build on tight timelines, it was all getting a bit too much. So I've taken my vacation two days early... to finish the bike properly, get packed and prepped. At 17h30 yesterday afternoon, I felt like 2 tonnes of shit have just been lifted from me. Man, it feels good!

So... I got the old Ducati SP3 out for a cheeky road test... just testin' stuff... including the camera mounts and angles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBT7-iEvdzU

In a few years racing on the IOM, despite good intentions, I have not often been able to really test stuff before bombing down Bray Hill. Man, I am so organised this year! To have the luxury of testing camera angles and doing some stickering up two days before I even get to the IOM and having those two days off work is just brilliant!

Looking like that custom belly-pan is going to work out...

Rain ended the fun. But I tested what I needed to... even tested the pit-lane speed limit through my village 'SLOW DOWN' speed monitor. She felt good. Pulled well and sounded awesome. Handling... hmmm... with a much softer rear spring, she felt a bit vague. Almost felt like the rear had been dropped.

Some beautiful carbon porn for one of my sponsors: oronero

More oronero beauty!

I think I'll lift the back up anyway... front a bit too. Worried about ground clearance. The scientific measurement for the belly-pan clearance is a "fist and an inch" before bottoming out. She's on that limit now. Need to check all the geometry.

Chin pad... needed for the bumps and Bray Hill/Begarrow bottoming out

Dropped the run-in oil and she's got some fresh Motul. Still got long list to get through... but now I got the whole day :-)

She's starting to look the part...

« Previous Page Next Page »