st4s in 851, how to do electronics?

saludos

Hi Guys,

I'm quite new here and read so much, but....

In my garage I've got my 851, single injector P7 computer bike, with 100.000 km's and oil consumtion.

Next to that a ST4S ABS, (total-loss) bike, which I just bought.

Yes, off-course I want to use the 996 engine in my bike, technical ( frame) mods is no problem.
Which set-up is the best way to go, electronical? I want to buy the parts before I start builing. Run on P7, single injector, of go to P8 double injector, and which parts do I need, or use all the ST4S electronics? ( I've been told that these silly computers break down...)

I already bought new SPS cams, and I want to make a quick street bike...

Anyone can help me? I already read about all different systems, but isn't anyone using stock-parts?

Henrik

Hi

I guess the reason for not having any answers in 24 hrs is that there are to many options.

I did an engine change last winter (described in thread winter project). Being a novice I took the easy route and bought an ECU which could be programmed to suit the engine configuration. Marvin is doing the same engine swap but is going more into the details of the electonics, also described in various posts. Hauge is fiddling around with different setups for his motor change, also described in posts. Plus a number of more. So I guess it's to many options to say which route is the best.

Any way you choose the first advise must be to sell your old engine and all your other bikes. Then your only way is forward..

Good luck
Henrik

saludos

Hi Henrik,

Yes, that's what I read.... Too many options, and everybody is taking another route. In Holland there is a saying: "You can't see the forest through the trees anymore"... There are so many ways to go, that I can't find out which way is te best, but:

I've just bought a P8 computer incl. wiring loom, and I will just start... I would like to put sps-cams in and perhaps run on dual-injector system.

I've been told that the st4 ecu's break down, so that's no option...

Off-course all input is welcome!!!

Eeeeh, sell old engine and all other bikes???? Naaaa, that's no option, I think. Just because it looks nice in my workshop.... ;-)

Grtz,

Peter

brad black

the st4s engine is a single pick up motor compatible with 1.6m, 1.5m, 5,9m and 5am ecu. if you want to run a p8 on it you'll need to get a dual pick up system running, the only one to swap in is from a 2000 996sps i believe.

it'd be much easier to run a 1.6m ecu, with a loom taken from a st4 for astart i'd say. probably want to go dual injector or more fuel pressure at least if you're going to be running sps cams.

Keith888

I might be missing something obvious here but cannot he just swap his old LHS alternator cover with twin pickups onto the ST4s engine. Probably also needs the gears (with appropriate 'lumps') swapping as well but probably easier than swapping ECUs??

Keith

mikesps

You would need a suitable flywheel as well, that is why Brad mentioned the 996SPS, both 1999 and 2000 had the later crankshaft splines I think.

I am using an FIM U59 and the rear part of the ST4S loom.

Keith888 wroteI might be missing something obvious here but cannot he just swap his old LHS alternator cover with twin pickups onto the ST4s engine. Probably also needs the gears (with appropriate 'lumps') swapping as well but probably easier than swapping ECUs?? Keith

Keith888

mikesps wroteYou would need a suitable flywheel as well, that is why Brad mentioned the 996SPS, both 1999 and 2000 had the later crankshaft splines I think. I am using an FIM U59 and the rear part of the ST4S loom.

That makes sense now! I wondered why it was not that easy.

Keith

vij

I did a very simular upgrade last winter. I installed a s4r (same 996 engine as ST4S) with 996 sps cams in my 1991 851. I used 916 wiring as it is very compatible with a 851 and I am running with a P16 with a FIM / ultimap 222 single injector chip for the moment. I am experimenting with a MyECU but for the moment I use P16. I am using the original 851throttle bodies with open airbox and ST4 headers with Sil moto ST4 slipons.

Here are some info and some pictures

http://www.ducati851and888.com/showthread.php?t=1392

If your ST4 has P16 ECU all is perfect. Just install it all with exhaust and everything. Maybe try to get a UM222 just so you can adjust it a bit.

If you have a 5,9 ecu it is a bit limiting as they are not easily tunable but should work good anyway. U59 is not an option as ultimap closed down.

I would just transplant the whole powerpackade including exhaust and wiring and just make it fit.

On my transplant the only modification I had to make were to replace the connector on the tank to make it compatible with 916 wiring. The rest was more or less a stright fit with some adjustment. Not difficult at all.

Jocke....

saludos

Aaaaaah, now things are getting clear to me and I already know a bit more....

The St4S donor runs indeed on 5.9 ecu. So, I have to make a choise, run on a P8, with dual pick-up, or go for a 1.6m.

My idea was to use my 851-dual pick-up cover, alternator and flywheel but I'm wrong, apparently

So can I fit the St4S alternator in a SPS cover, or my old 851 cover, together with a 996 sps Flywheel, for instance http://www.ducati-kaemna.de/cms_de/k...el&artikel=889

I prefer to use "standard" parts above making something.... I already made so much parts for my old Beveldrive 750, and I don't want to make it a project like that ( it took me 4 years....)

You're really helping me out, thanks guys!!! ( and keep on writing;-))

marvin

I'm going the 1.6 ECU route. SPS parts are hard to find used and I have no way to burn a chip for a P8.
I have never heard about any reliability issues with the 1.6.

Jimmy used the SPS parts perhaps he can chime in here.?

Mr.R

Hi,
The late Rob Barksfield (Rob B) RIP, fitted an ST4S motor and complete wiring harness into his 888 special, his motor after being fitted with 431/G cams made around 130rwbhp with the 1.6M ecu with single injectors per cylinder.
If you can get access to the DSC UK forum his project is all written up in the 851/888 section.
I'd put up a link, but my IP address has been banned from that forum, their 851/888 section is so slooow these days that I can't be bothered to ask why?
Maybe a DSC UK member (Jasper, Spike, Ducati Dad?) can help you out with a link??

Steve R

ducati dad

Hi Steve, I've had a quick look on the DSC and I can only find references to the conversion from Rob, ranging from '03 to '04. I can't seem to find an "in depth thread " or a " step by step " account. Maybe I've missed it somehow but I'll ask Andy [FE] tomorrow to have a look as he's also a member.

carbohans

Hi mates,

j am doing the same thing, putting a st4s engine in my sp4 frame.
The orginal alternator cover from a sp4 do not fit the st4s engine!!!!!
The crankschaft are differend, the one in the st4s is about 1,5 centimeter schorter, if you want a two pick up setup (p8) you need the 2000 sps alternatorcover and thats a big big problem to find one. you need also a other flywheel with 4 pick ups.
dont buy a rs cover the are verry differend!!

You can also put a differend crankschaft in the st4s case you need a 916 crank or a 900 (1026cc i believe) crank with the good splines then you can use the orginal alternatorcover for your p8 cumputer.

I have an st4s engine with sps heads, and than you will need longer stud bolds to make your sps heads fit!!!, (748 996 are the same st4s to short).

I use the 1.6m ecu that is the easiest way and you have a stronger alternator and maybe if i can find a 2000 sps alternator cover i use them.

O and the head gaskets are differend you have 0.5 mm and 1.1 mm the base gaskets 0.2mm etc are no longer availeble but you can make your one.

sorry for my englisch next time better?

vij

saludos wroteAaaaaah, now things are getting clear to me and I already know a bit more.... The St4S donor runs indeed on 5.9 ecu. So, I have to make a choise, run on a P8, with dual pick-up, or go for a 1.6m.

I might have missed something here but what is the problems with running a 5,9 ECU. More or less all ducatis since 2002 untill a year or two ago were running them.

A lot of modern italian cars are running them. I would not worry at all. The oly problen I can see is if you want to map them but it is solutions for that too.

http://www.hypertrick.net/

http://cgi.ebay.de/Rexxer-User-ECU-Ducati-Moto-Guzzi-MV-Agusta-KTM-Harley_W0QQitemZ190349885673QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorrad_Kraftradteile?hash=item2c51bcc0e9

http://cgi.ebay.de/Flashen-Mapping-Tuning-ECU-Ducati-Monster-SBK-1198-etc_W0QQitemZ190361214051QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorrad_Kraftradteile?hash=item2c52699c63

If you want to replace the ecu why not this one?

or the nemesis. This one is not for st4 but I think that the new nemesis 2 will do the job

Jocke.....

saludos

Eeeeh, I guess I'm missing something.... Reading through everything again and again, most people use the 1.6 ECU, single pick-up.

Now perhaps the most stupid question: what's the advantage of the dual pick-up system?

Biggelaar, a well known Dutch Ducati dealer warned me for the 5.9 system. het told me that they are not reliable, and hard to do some tuning with it, therefore I thought of running on other ECU. That's the reason for me, not to use this system...

WolfManSpecial

Call us at Radical ducati,is easy make that,tolk whit pepo

WolfManSpecial

better by email

vij

saludos wroteEeeeh, I guess I'm missing something.... Reading through everything again and again, most people use the 1.6 ECU, single pick-up. Now perhaps the most stupid question: what's the advantage of the dual pick-up system? Biggelaar, a well known Dutch Ducati dealer warned me for the 5.9 system. het told me that they are not reliable, and hard to do some tuning with it, therefore I thought of running on other ECU. That's the reason for me, not to use this system...

As far as I can see dual sensor does not bring anything at all. The singel sensor gives a more accurate timing due to the setup. The only advantage with dual itself is that you are measuring on the crank and not on the timing shaft. The timing shaft has a small backlash but I think that that will not matters at all.

The big advantage with dual is that with dual you can use a P8 ECU. The P8 can run injectors in sequense. That can not be done on P16, P15 or 5,9.

P8 is also very reliable.

The reason to use a 5,9 ECU in your case is the fact that you already have all the parts, ECU, harness, sensors RPM indicator and so on. You dont have to buy anything. Why spend money on buying things if you dont have to. If you dont trust the 5,9 ECU maybe you shuld use one of the replacement ECU:s that excists.

If you want to spend more money and like ebay clicking a P16setup might be good but I dont see the reason.

If I would do my 851/996 conversion today I think that I would use a P16 ST-4 setup as I think that it fits better then a 916 setup. The reason that went for 916 is that it was easy to find and I did not know that ST-4 was very compatible.

Jocke......

brad black

they like dual pick ups on the race bikes, not sure why. 749R has provision to fit the dual pick up kit.

i'd just get a loom from a st4 if possible and use that with the 1.6m. the 748/916/996 loom will be too long at the ecu end and won't have throttle body stuff. the 1.6m will fit nicely and is mostly reliable none of the later ones are as reliable as a p7 or p8 tho ime.

and because the 1.6m has internal coil drivers, you do away with the ignition boxes at the back of the bike, etc. helps makes the loom better. there's no way i'd go through the hassle of making it dual pick up.

Jimmy

I'm in the process of installing a st4s motor, seems like the project has been going on for two years now. I went the p8 dual pickup route, timing gears, flywheel and alt cover from a 2000 996sps. My problem now is a suitable chip for the p8, any suggestions?