1026

hauge

Finaly running!
I must admit that I´ve been spending to little time on this forum and to much in the shed. I also belive that a lot of the troubles that has come in my way could be easiely solved on this forum. However, I´m not so relaxed with the language.

After a lots of minor problems and missmatches (found out the hard way...) It finaly runs.
At one stage last last summer i missed the little marks on the timing gears (just reached the age where you need glasses...).
Did not notice at first since I had adjustable camsprockets and managed to to fix the timing before I noticed my misstake.
I had a lot of trouble with the Myecu (backfire at start) so I had to get some help and I´m now using tuner pro and make my own eproms.

I did not finnish all the way. The stock airbox and velocity stack are to be replaced.
The mapping was also a quick jobb and nothing is done with the ignition. The 038 map that I use has a lot of adv. ign. though.

Any way, summer is here and its track day time. When things has calmed down a bit I will look into the airbox and make a new mapp for E85 (wich I use now) and also for petrol.

I´ll excpect some more juice whit proper mapping, airbox and and a road rear tire in stead of a slic.

Cheers
Thomas

hauge

Well!
After trying with petrol instead of E85 (was tired of trying to get a map where the bike started and idled properly) It turned out that 14:1 is more than enough for regular petrol. It startet and runned pretty well up to 4 krpm. After that it would pink enormusly. I tok back home and gave it a new try with E85 and a new map (burning my own eproms to the P8, could not get it start properly with Myecu).
This time it run realy nice. Aftrer getting proper engine temperatur i started to see what it whent for. It pulled very good and I was very happy untill it started to mka noice and running in one cyl....
Well, newpistal pistons(for petrol this time...) ordered and a new Nemesis ecu for easier maping!
Looks as valves and seats will be fine.

Cheers
Thomas

mikesps

Hi Thomas,

Sorry to see the damage. I have a 14:1 engine that I am about to start mapping. What was the octane rating of the fuel that you were using? Did you manage to find a TunerPro XDF file for P8 maps? I tried to find one or figure one out for a while, then went with a second hand FIM U59.

Mike

Mr.R

Hi Thomas,
I'm not surprised that 14-1 was too much for regular fuel*.
Using Super Unleaded like Shell 'V' Power 98 or 99 ron you could get away with the low 13-1's, but it's pretty close to the safe limit, you'd only need a dodgy batch of fuel and it could/would detonate/ping.
What squish clearence did you use? There's some interesting marking on the exhaust side of the undamaged head in your pic's.

*Do you meen race fuel/petrol here?

Steve R

hauge

mikesps wroteHi Thomas, Sorry to see the damage. I have a 14:1 engine that I am about to start mapping. What was the octane rating of the fuel that you were using? Did you manage to find a TunerPro XDF file for P8 maps? I tried to find one or figure one out for a while, then went with a second hand FIM U59. Mike

I have access to XDF for P7, P8, 1,5 and 1,6.
Its (now, not when I started this project) possible to do live mapping with an emulator (moates, ostrich 2.0).
Its also possible to have a big chip whith up to 16 different maps that yoy cab switch between.

hauge

Mr.R wroteHi Thomas, I'm not surprised that 14-1 was too much for regular fuel*. Using Super Unleaded like Shell 'V' Power 98 or 99 ron you could get away with the low 13-1's, but it's pretty close to the safe limit, you'd only need a dodgy batch of fuel and it could/would detonate/ping. What squish clearence did you use? There's some interesting marking on the exhaust side of the undamaged head in your pic's. *Do you meen race fuel/petrol here? Steve R

I used Shell V-power 98. Wich is the best you can get as "standard" here.
Squish was also in the low end. 0,7mm. I thoght since I´m not will rew to much and with Carillos I might be enough. I´m not sure if thats is marks from the piston though.

Just about to disasemble an early st2 engine to use the crank and more or less complete left side (alternator, picup, cover, etc.).
Just got my new Pistal. I have a spare set of Carillos as well so i will see what compression I get before I send it for balancing (in case I need to remove some material from pistons).

Cheers
Thomas

Mr.R

Hi Thomas,

0.7mm squish clearence you're a far braver man than me. 😯
I wouldn't go any lower than 0.9mm and that's on the brave side of building a tuned motor, if you want it to last?
The accepted norm being 1 mm for a safe motor, dial in the longer stroke crank and bigger bore pistons and you're asking for trouble IMO.
One missed gear at 0.7mm and you'd almost certainly hit the heads.
It's not like you're building a drag race motor, it has to last longer than a 1/4 mile blast up the strip before being stripped and rebuilt.

How much extra power do you think you'll get by running the squish that close?
I'd bet it won't outweigh the cost of the rebuilds...

Steve R

phl851

hauge wroteI have access to XDF for P7, P8, 1,5 and 1,6. Its (now, not when I started this project) possible to do live mapping with an emulator (moates, ostrich 2.0). Its also possible to have a big chip whith up to 16 different maps that yoy cab switch between.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a thunderpro XDF file for P8?
where can I find out / read more?

thanks Phil.

hauge

Mr.R wroteHi Thomas, 0.7mm squish clearence you're a far braver man than me. 😯 I wouldn't go any lower than 0.9mm and that's on the brave side of building a tuned motor, if you want it to last? The accepted norm being 1 mm for a safe motor, dial in the longer stroke crank and bigger bore pistons and you're asking for trouble IMO. One missed gear at 0.7mm and you'd almost certainly hit the heads. It's not like you're building a drag race motor, it has to last longer than a 1/4 mile blast up the strip before being stripped and rebuilt. How much extra power do you think you'll get by running the squish that close? I'd bet it won't outweigh the cost of the rebuilds... Steve R

Well, nothing outwighs the cost of the rebuild...
Deciding for 0,7 was bacause at least 2 guys had run 0,8 in their 996 with standard rods so I thought I give it a go.
There aren,t any marks in the head or piston that inicates that 0,7 mm was to tight. It has run plenty runs in the dyno to 10200 rpm and past.

Tom at hypertric builded an 996 sps with 13,7:1 and cams 115deg and it run with wpower 98 (137 rwhp).
I actually never belived that my engine would run with petrol but sinsce the sps run I thought I give it a go to see weather it would be esier to start and if so, lower the compresion a bit.
I did not think that a vey short run on petrol with the engine pinking would damage it so much.
I thinkt there are two major misstakes in this projekt.
1. I did not have an injektion system that was up to the job at the start,
2. I under estimated the time needed to get start maps and so for e85 to work. Finding out a map for running was no problem.

Well, new pistons just arrived. I disassembled an st2 engine yester day to get a modern crank (mine has is the old 6 splines) and using the complete leftside with 1 picup system.
I will send the crank, pistons and rods for balancing (and checking the rods). I´ll go for 0,9-1mm squish and around 12,5:i in compression.
I also got a set of 748R throttle bodies that I will modify to fit.

story continues
Cheers
Thomas

hauge

phl851 wroteExcuse my ignorance, but what is a thunderpro XDF file for P8? where can I find out / read more? thanks Phil.

Hello Phil!

Tunerpro is a program that alows you to make you tune your existing computer. You can either meake new eproms or you can actualy map the bike live with an emulator. You dont even have to turn of the engine when you change the map.
The xdf file tells the program where the information is and what it does on the prom. Ohterwise there is just a bunch of hex numbers that tells you nothing. Tunerpro converts all the numbers to understable tables.
Tom and another frind of mine have spendt enormus amount of time to get this to work for p7, p8, 1.5 and 1.6. The 5.9 is about to work soon.
I have not got an answer from my frind how he can share this in a way that he can get som cred for it and that i wont get in wrong hands.
As soon as I know I´ll be happy to share.

cheers
Thomas

Madman

Thomas

If you attempt a run on E85 you need to ballbark at least
40% more fuel as a start point. With the E85 you can throw
more ign timing at it if wanted.

We stopped with the E85 due to the fuel is not consistent
in the blend!!!

Bill

moperfserv

Sorry about chiming in on this thread after almost two years, but my comments will be about the tuning which has occurred on the near end of this.

First, 14:1 compression ratio is 115 octane (or E85) territory and I wouldn't be surprised if carefull timing adjustment wouldn't be able to compensate for that.

The 0.7mm squish certainly isn't what many would call 'Safe' but it is exactly what you need to keep that aspect safe from detonation. If your problems haven't been mechanical interference, the squish is helping, but won't be enough.
After taking another look at the photos, it appears that the pistons have been touching the heads.

I haven't checked all the specs but changing from gasoline to E85 will probably compromise the injector sizing on one end or the other. That assumes that you have completely developed custom chips for each fuel application. I would assume that you won't have enough software time available for the E85 with the stock injectors. Changing to a much higher fuel pressure but the flow goes up as the square root of the difference. Going from 3 bar to 5 bar will get you 29% more fuel.

The P8 should be entirely adequate to tune this thing, using emulators is nice but changing ECUs only increases the number of possible variables. Swapping from 'chip' to 'chip' is only poking around in the dark.

Any system isn't going to arrive with the calibration you need because nobody has developed that cal yet. That is the job of the 'builder'!

So, finidng a 'chip' that allows the engine to start, but misfires somewhere else just tells me that the tuning isn't done. Changing fuels is a disaster, but you already know that.

Again, I apologize if I missed the part about custom chips being developed for both pump-gas and E85 and injectors or fuel pressure being changed for each.

I've tuned more than a hundred of the chip based Ducatis (don't tell any of my friends, but I've done a bunch of Moto Guzzis, a Laverda, and a couple MVs too) and it takes time to get it right, and, they are all different.

Doug

hauge

Hi Doug, thanks for the reply.
Well its easy to be clever after.....
The biggest issue in this project was my unexperience with fuel injection. I did get a My ecu wich did not "you see what you get". When I programed spartk at tdc while start I would still get 4-5 deg advance. It did run nice with My ecu but starting was big trouble. I think the 4 pins on the flywheel and the pin on the timing gear is not enough information to get the bike to start if you dont have a perfect fuel map.
Anyway, after replacing 3 spragclutches I was getting a bit tired of it...
I do have a 996 twin injector thottle body so enough fuel was never a problem.
When I startet I did not haver acces to bin files and so for the P8 so I was stuck with My ecu. Since I had the old 6 splines crank I could not go for a single pick up either.
I spendt lots of hour mapping. Problems with start maps is that you have only one try. Then You have to get it to start anyway because you cant try again after 12 hours with unburnt fuel in the engine.
I found out that a little switch for the fuel pump is good so one could run the engine without fuel. It needs less fuel during start with 85 compared with a petrol (in %)
I ended up with aprox. 50% more fuel than my 888 strada map.

Anyway, after starting to build the engine I spendt more days on track and I go to both Germany and Spain so it would be quitw nice with a petrol engine anyway....
Since I don´t race I go on the safer side this time.
I got new Pistal pistons and a crank and complete leftside from 2 phase ST 2 engine.
Combined with a Nemesis I think this will ne a much esier engine to set up.

The marks in the head and piston seems to be fine. No marks but just lack of the black stuff that I dony know the English word for...
0,8 mm squish will be fine and 0,9 on the safe side, I guess.

Cheers
Thomas ( with the first snow on the ground...)

RED

Yes, 0.9mm would be the right choise, i think. If you use ti-rods and revs over 10k pm then i would chose 1.0mm.

RED

Madman

While i will agree that the piston hit the head i will not
blame it on just the squish. It really stems from the piston head
combo. From what i have seen, it seems that some of the domes
were designed off the pre 92 head. The domes need to be modded
if your looking for a tight squish.

Just info on what i have dealt with in the past.
Bill

paulg@go-faster.com

My SP4 has a 984 motor and I think its the nicest motor Ducati never made. I collected all the bits over the years and designed it for mid range grunt rather than top end as most of my riding is on the 4-8k rpm range. Big valves, ported heads, cams changed, vernier pulleys, lots of dyno setup and I got what I wanted - loads of mid range and a nice top end rush - all built into a later set of new 888 cases. It also has a different exhaust note to a normal one, deeper and sharper. It managed a 3k miles blat down to Italy and back this summer, so its useable, though it does need regular checking over to keep it in top form. Its a really beautiful motor, anyone thinking of converting an 888 should do it - you will not be disappointed.

hauge

Spendt a few hours yesterday in the shed. I´ll get 12,8:1 with 0,9mm squish with the new pistal pistons.
Seems good enough for me. I ordered a bunch of barrel gasquets in varius thickness from my local water cut company.
If any one want the dxf file just pm me.
I also got a set of 748R throttle bodys that I´ll adapt to fit my inlets.

Cheers
Thomas

brad black

this bike had the 14:1 pistals - http://www.bikeboy.org/996SPS.html

Mr.R

brad black wrotethis bike had the 14:1 pistals - http://www.bikeboy.org/996SPS.html

14-1 comp' ratio! 😯
What octane rating fuel was it running on Brad?
That's got to be up around Av gas/Blue gas territory, even with a modern designed watercooled motor.
Another question would be how the F'ck did you get it started?
I think the standard starter motor/battery (even with a Hawker Odyssey) would struggle with that comp' on a bored and stroked motor.

Steve R

mikesps

I have 14:1 engine Steve, built by Chris Steedman. He assured me that 98 octane will be fine (UK 98, not US 98). I hope to finally get the time to map it when I get home next month, so we will see what happens! He has built quite a few like this so I am sure it will be fine.

When I first tried to start it, it turned over at 10 RPM. After removing the plugs it was still 10 RPM. Turns out the commutator in the starter was burned black when the previous owner tried to start it after the main bearings failed. I cleaned the starter up and fitted new brushes. It now starts instantly.

Mike

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