tricolore
RWG
Am going, you never know
lordmoonpie
Doesn't this one look a bit odd? It has non-standard marchesini wheels not Marvics, standard 851 clocks not the kit dash, rear disc is wrong and looks dangerously perforated, the fairing has indicator holes where the kit didn't have indicators, it appears to have an ohlins rear shock when it should be a Marzocchi, rear hugger is white not black (maybe just paint?).....and the last I heard, KIT 207 was the last one assembled and taken straight into Ducati's museum?
So is it a bodged 851 KIT or is it a KIT lookalike 851 tricolore? It doesn't look like a good example to me! 😝
scott 888
Superbike kit?
I noticed a few of these items the other day when I was looking at Bonhams online catalogue but did not have the guts to post it.
On another note there are a few 916 Senna"s in the same sale, makes you wonder if they will put a hole in the market or someone may get a bargain.
Scott
tricolore
I know absolutely nothing about KIT's - but I know a lot more now - thanks .
lordmoonpie
I've had a couple of good exchanges with Bonhams on this bike, they are really very attentive and I have to say not having bought or sold through them (yet), they seem to operate with really high integrity which is great.
The information they came back with is:
"The 851 came from an auction in Japan, and originally it was sold by a dealer in Hong Kong in 1988. The engine number is different, it should be 850716
The kit was produced just for racing use. It was produced in 153 exemplars to being homologate for the brand new World Superbike Championship, that was inaugurated in 1988.
I have asked the vendor to take a photo of the engine number and as soon as we are in receipt, will forward all the images to Ducati for a final verdict.
Where possible Bonhams endeavour to verify a machine's frame and engine number (the frame carrying a machines identity unless the engine, as in the case of Velocette). I cannot comment as to the originality/authenticity of the machines individual components sadly. It is not uncommon for components to be updated/changed over the life of a machine therefore it is very much the responsibility of the bidder to satisfy themselves as to the completeness/integrity of a lot prior to bidding, as detailed in our Guide for Buyers. The machine has been displayed/stored within the vendors collection since acquisition from auction (in Japan) and clearly requires an element of recomissioning/restoration before returning to the track/road.
As soon as Ducati have offered their thoughts we will place a suitable Sale Room Notice on the machine (appearing on the online catalogue, in print affixed to the machine at the sale and announced by the Auctioneer prior to the lot being offered)."
The head stamping turned out to be a "M FT" which to my mind makes the engine a 1990/1 strada but there is very little head stamp info freely available so interested if anyone knows for sure. It isn't however an "A" stamp you'd expect with a KIT engine, with or without the additional C or D. The frame number is ZDM851S*850207 and the engine number should be 850716. The frame number fits in both the kit and strada ranges.
Be really interesting to see what anyone else thinks about this but with all the evidence in front of me I'd say this is a tricolore or even a dressed up strada, NOT a KIT. Thoughts?
Pompey
Well if it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and smells like a dog chances are ... its a ....dog. sad but true.
TipsyNipper
scott 888 wroteI noticed a few of these items the other day when I was looking at Bonhams online catalogue but did not have the guts to post it.
On another note there are a few 916 Senna"s in the same sale, makes you wonder if they will put a hole in the market or someone may get a bargain.
Scott
Yeah no less than six Sennas. My mate tony is made up. Hes been after one for months. I think we might take a trip up there. there are some serious bikes up for auction. got my eye on a red special Vincent 1000 ....estimate £ 55000- £70000... Nahhh... just kidding...Check out the auction.
Pat
TipsyNipper
Pompey wroteWell if it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and smells like a dog chances are ... its a ....dog. sad but true.
Wooff Wofff...Yep its a dog...!
Pat
lordmoonpie
Well, I got in touch with bonhams and told them what I thought their bike was, a tricolore strada at best with some not so goodie aftermarket upgrades and a 1991/2 standard motor. Massive credit to them they were extremely polite and explained how they ask the owners for proof of provenance etc. In this case they went back to the owner and got more photos which they shared with me and also went to the factory to get their opinion. The result - yes it's a tricolore with a later engine in it for sure and some aftermarket changes from standard. Bonhams have added all the information to the listing to advise buyers and suggest they do further checks if they are interested in buying. As a thank you for sticking my nose in, they kindly sent me a sale catalogue for Stafford this weekend. Not only is this a lovely glossy full colour book of the auction lots, it saves me £20+ on entry to the sale room this weekend! So looking at the way they have dealt with this, I have to say not only is Bonhams customer service excellent, they clearly operate with an extremely high level of integrity. In this day and age, good for them I say!
wgsvintage
The bike sounds like a cool candidate for a vintage racer to me, unless the price gets driven up too high.
Bill
Geo7863
It's mine!
Thought I'd drag this old thread up for an update.
I bought this bike in December 2015 and paid £7K for it. Is it a dog? well its definitely a Bitsa that's for sure... and in tatty condition. But it started up no problem and sounded bloody marvellous through those Kit pipes! But I didn't buy it to ride it I bought it for the bits that I want for my 748ie project and I was going to sell the rest as spare parts.
But it is a bit of a perplexing machine. Okay the non standard bits first. 17x 3.5 and 17x 6 Technomagnesio wheels which look to be in rather good condition, however they are magnesium and old.. so without a crack test who knows?... and probably not good for hard riding anymore in any case.
320mm Race Brembo discs... bit worn now and in need of re-anodising at least. Ohlin's shock.. very tatty needs a service big style, but no damage to it. Horrible bog standard P4 calipers, don't need to say much about them I already have four spare pairs! White Power steering damper, still strong but could do with a service I guess. The rear Hugger is not original to the Strada/kit. Standard 260m rear disc but over-drilled however a new 'braking ring' can be made up no problem.
The bike itself.. according to the Spare Parts catalogue its a Kit Frame, square mounting plate on the front, and steering stop plate across the bottom behind the steering headstock...funnily enough it doesn't have the tabs for the tank strap and never did...unless they were cut off exactly and the frame sanded down as smooth as the rest of it!
According to Ducati it was sold as a Strada.. and I am awaiting confirmation on that. I guess its possible that they had too many Kit frames and used some on the Strada's...who knows?
The forks aren't for the Kit or Strada, they are for a 300mm disc as standard and have adaptors to fit the 320mm discs... maybe from a late Paso or later 851 Strada? I don't know.
Bodywork, the seat has the tell-tale 'watermark' fault...but I believe that the Strada had that as well. It has had holes drilled to take indicators, but they can be filled in. The LH fairing has a cut-out for the steering damper. I can't see that on the spare parts catalogue for either bike...but the Strada didn't come with a steering damper according to the catalogue.
Front fairing looks pukka, side fairings have holes drilled for indicators... but once again that can be rectified. Front mudguard original for a Kit (17" wheel)
The electrics are all over the place... however the main aluminium fusebox/relay plate is the Flat Kit one not the Strada one with a 'back and side wall' (according to the spare parts book). The Instrument panel is Strada but has a rev-counter red-lining at 11K revs. The Instruments are in very good condition with the needles still bright orange! The speedo drive was not attached and the drive gear snail is not the big chunky black plastic one that I have seen on all later Dukes, Its a thin metal Veglia one as per the 750 F1's and it was fitted to a hole drilled into the RHS of the front wheel.
Engine. The crankcases are I believe form a Kit stamped 1987. The heads are Marked '91 with a big old M. And it is not the engine that came in that frame... so was it raced and the heads melted? or was it raced and the original engine owner got stronger cases and sold these cases on?.. and then the owner of this bike married it with 91 heads? who knows! I have not had a look at the cams yet or any of the other internals.
I cant think of many other points of note at the moment to be honest.
So its a Bitsa..... it can be brought back to life (and original beauty) that's for sure.. but ONLY as a Bitsa. Do I still use this engine on my project and get another one to restore this bike at a later date? or do I get another Engine for my project bike and restore this one as is (engine wise) at a later date?
Do I go for 16inch Marvic/Akronts? or use other suitable 17 inchers? ( I have a NOS set of 3 spoke Ducati Performance Marchesinis which can go on it!) do I try and restore it as much of a Strada as I can?..or do I break it up and sell it as spares?
George
wgsvintage
I would say you have carte blanche to do anything you want with it that's fun for you.
RWG
Agree, anything you want, though Tricolore Strada's with 17" wheels sounds good to me.
Best wishes
nine16
You already have one project. I think you should take the parts you need and part out the rest of the Tricolor.
Geo7863
nine16 wroteYou already have one project. I think you should take the parts you need and part out the rest of the Tricolor.
I already have TWO projects on the go, plus a Niggly problem on my 900SL to sort, Plus a 900SS to get back on the road to sell.. my hands are in deed quite full at the moment :-)
Geo7863
I contacted Ducati with the bikes details and received a phone call from a Lady called Fabiana... my frame number is NOT in their records apparently. I have to take some photos and send them to Ducati so that Livio Lodi at the museum can 'investigate'
Bit strange if Bonhams said that they got confirmation back in 2013 that it was a Strada sold to a dealer in Hong Kong. I know that the bike came as a shipment of two from Japan I have a copy of the paperwork, and I know that the second bike is a Strada, I have seen it when I went to pick mine up. Perhaps that was the one that was sold to a dealer in Hong Kong?!
Claire4dukes
Many strange things happened with Ducati around the time these bikes were made; the factory struggled to get any sort of production out the door and there were a few bitsas/parts bin specials made. I have seen two Ducati 900SS coming out of the crate with 900SS paperwork and 900SS invoicing - only both were 900SL's and even those were different; one with two piece Akront wheels one with Marchenisini wheels, One with a plastic front guard the other with carbon fibre guard, one with fully floating cast iron rotors, the other with stainless steel rotors etc. Customers ended up getting very nice bikes for 900SS money
Even Claire's 1992 old style 851 "Strada" had an 888 engine that Brad has identified as an SP series motor although it only had single injectors. The paper work may say one thing the actual article may be something quite different.
Cheers
Nigel & Claire
customhead
It says DUCATI OWNERS CLUB GIFU on the fairing.
I lived in Gifu in Japan for almost 10 years.
I think this bike is a pretty classic example of the Japanese guys modifying their road bikes with upgraded bits over time.
Really, you should see the 5 story buildings in every major ( and non-major) city full of tasty upgrade/custom/modify parts.
Start with a Strada or even a Kit, then after a while you save up and start putting the pipes and wheels on (techmag very popular in Japan) take off the rear mudguard (which is why someone has put on that white one later) cause that looks cool in the 90's, Ohlins is obligatory, so is the WP damper.
I think the forks are actually for the original 280mm discs, drill the rear disc cause its cool, add the nice front 320s. Then you hear the heads on the 90 or 91 are better so you pop some on top of the Kit bottom.
Cause its cool...
I dont think the bike is intentionally a bitsa, its just that they dont go in for originality like other countries do.
Sean
Geo7863
customhead wroteIt says DUCATI OWNERS CLUB GIFU on the fairing.
I lived in Gifu in Japan for almost 10 years.
I think this bike is a pretty classic example of the Japanese guys modifying their road bikes with upgraded bits over time.
Really, you should see the 5 story buildings in every major ( and non-major) city full of tasty upgrade/custom/modify parts.
Start with a Strada or even a Kit, then after a while you save up and start putting the pipes and wheels on (techmag very popular in Japan) take off the rear mudguard (which is why someone has put on that white one later) cause that looks cool in the 90's, Ohlins is obligatory, so is the WP damper.
I think the forks are actually for the original 280mm discs, drill the rear disc cause its cool, add the nice front 320s. Then you hear the heads on the 90 or 91 are better so you pop some on top of the Kit bottom.
Cause its cool...
I dont think the bike is intentionally a bitsa, its just that they dont go in for originality like other countries do.
Sean
Thanks for that Sean, no I don't think the bike is intentionally a bitsa either...as in built from various spare parts to 'deceive'. And whilst I am still awaiting Ducati's response, I am inclined to believe that it started life as a Kit.
I am not worried about 100% originality, I'm not anal enough for that :-) ... after all if you so much as change your Ducati OEM brake lines to Earls hoses for example... you have lost your 100% originality straight away.
The deal for me is that with the 'rarity' of the kit, it would be a shame to brake the bike up for my project. if it was a Strada, whilst still relatively rare, it somehow to me doesn't seem to be a such a 'big deal' to break it up for parts...in either case it will eventually be restored to one or the other. But if its a kit then I am going to have to source or manufacture at the least that swingarm for my project bike!
