New member and question...what shall I put in these cases?

MotorEddy

Hi all,

I'm not currently an 851 / 888 owner though I've owned both in the past. The first was an '89 851DS bought in '92:-

1993, Paddock Hill Bend, Brands Hatch.

For many years I didn't own a car so my bikes had to do their duty for commuting, holidays and track days. Going to work through central London on a loud, red motorcycle always felt like a special occasion. The 851 was replaced by an 888 Strada in '94:-

'94 or '95, Island Bends, Mallory Park.

I was knocked off the 888 twice; both times I bought the salvage back from the insurance company. The second time (after the drunk driver had been arrested) I sold the remains on to John Fallon, and in 1996 I bought my 916, the first and only new vehicle I've ever owned. The 916 was run-in (!) on the way to Le Mans in April '96 and as per the previous Ducatis it took me to work, on holidays (including a trip over the Alps to watch WSB at Monza where I had a reg/rect failure...a whole story in itself) and track days (including losing the front-end at Cascades, Oulton Park). We also went to the 'Ring a few times, when the entry onto the circuit was just before the Hatzenbach section and was controlled by a guy in a shed to whom you showed your paper ticket. Some years later, after we'd moved up North I was commuting to work (60-ish miles across the Pennines) and suffered a broken belt. This resulted in a rebuild with A & G cams, SP heads and special pistons with SP-sized cutouts, high comp and 20mm gudgeon pin holes. This was combined with the Strada single injectors and an Ultimap chip. This was not a great spec - I couldn't use the extra top-end which the cams created because I was on stock 'rods, and the map on the Ultimap wasn't optimised and a huge mid-range hole, exacerbated by the cams.
Time passed, we had a family and other projects came & went - Locaterfield road/sprint car, XT500 rebuild, R1 build and a '68 Triumph 650 rebuild. The 916 languished in mates' garages, one of which turned out to have a damp problem. When I dragged the 916 out it wasn't a pretty sight...furry fasteners and white flaky 'cases. It's now in pieces for a proper sort out, and so onto the question...what should I put in these 'cases?

I already have - full set of RHP and SKF bearings for mains and gearbox, low-mileage stock cylinders and pistons (916), 66mm and 68mm cranks, stock rods, SP heads - 34/30 valves, G/A cams, stock cams, standard and close-ratio gearsets, 45mm exhaust, carbon-fibre end cans.

There are a lot of new chassis parts, too - Ohlins shock, new forks bushes & seals, new rear axle and wheel bearings - but that'll come later.

I don't want and can't now afford the ultimate spec or big power. Round here the roads are narrow and bumpy so good suspension setup and a fat, flat torque curve make much more sense, so here's what I'm thinking:-

68mm crank (with machining to timing shaft if required)
Install new mains and transmission bearings, dry build and check end-float
Stock rods, stock flat(ish) pistons, old-spec thick base gasket & head gasket
Check squish and correct (second base gasket or spacer); check valve-to-piston clearance between 34/30 valves and aforementioned pistons; relieve pistons if necessary
Stock cams set to ???-degree cam timing
Close-ratio gearset
Ultimap (is there anyone who can re-map these chips?) or Power Commander?

Sorry for the ramble & thanks for reading!

Eddy

MotorEddy

Or shall I return it to standard spec?

Eddy

hauge

68mm crank will be fine. For camtiming you should check Brad Blacks webpage.
There is probably alot of people around who can make you an e-prom for p7, p8. 1.6, etc.

Good luck with your project

brad black

68mm crank, sp heads, std cams, use late thin head gaskets and stack base gaskets as required. pistons should be ok with 34/30 i'd think.

MotorEddy

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Some progress at last:-

New mains, transmission and timing shaft bearing in. Got the cases good and hot with a hot air gun; the RHP mains and 6305C3 bearings dropped straight in. The smaller ones needed a tap with a medium-sized persuader.

Next step is to mate the cases with crank, gear cluster and timing shaft in place then check & adjust the endfloat.
Question: Which gear cluster? The stock 916 ratios, or the 748SP cluster I have?

Cheers,

Eddy

Mr.R

If you're using std/Strada cams then fit the standard wide ratio cluster, the close ratio is a PITA on the road and not needed unless the motor has a narrow power band with the power stacked right up at the top of the rev range.

I'd sell the G+A cams and buy a set of 916/996SPS cams, then time these at 107/107 CL's and the motor will make stronger power with the peak coming in at under 9.5K.
My 851/916cc motor with 916SP heads and 35/30 valves, single injectors and 50mm system, makes 128.5 rwbhp at 9.2K and it pulls like a freight train from as low as 3K.

Steve R

MotorEddy

Steve R - thanks for the gearing advice; stock cluster it is (just as well, really - spent Saturday morning hunting high & low for the close-ratio box to no avail).

Checked and adjusted end-float on the input, output & selector drum. Need a couple of shims for the crank to set the pre-load (new mains fitted).

Then discovered that the 900SS crank I have been planning to use has been whacked on the timing-side end by someone using an inappropriately-large persuader and the area around the oil feed is distorted. I think it will clean up, but I need to take it down to my engine shop and get them to mount it on the crank grinder. It's the area where the bush & oil seal fit onto the end of the crank. We'll see how I get on...

Eddy

MotorEddy

Zombie thread alert...!

The 68mm crank was scrap, so I'm back to the stock 916 crank.

Gears and selector are in, crank is in & pre-load set, primary and timing gears are installed.

This is where I think I'm going next:-

Trial fit pistons, cylinders & heads and check/adjust squish (I have earlier & later base gaskets, but only later thin head gaskets to play with).

Fit and time cams, checking clearances between the 34/30 valves and the cutouts on the stock Strada pistons.

I'd like to optimise what I have, and want to set the cam timing for the optimum setting for Strada cams (A inlet & exhaust, I think) but can't afford vernier pulleys. Is there still a source for offset keys?

Cheers,

Eddy

MotorEddy

I was moving the Strada cams from the late-style drop cam bearing holders to my 888/916 style bearing holders tonight. Guess what I found? Both exhaust cams were fitted with 8-dot offset keys. Surely that's a lot of offset? Now I think about it, these cams probably came from an ST4 motor I pulled apart about 6 or 7 years ago.

Eddy

jackg

Hi Eddy

Great project and I've really enjoyed following what you are doing.

If you are ever down this way come and play and visa versa.

Jx

Mr.R

MotorEddy wroteI was moving the Strada cams from the late-style drop cam bearing holders to my 888/916 style bearing holders tonight. Guess what I found? Both exhaust cams were fitted with 8-dot offset keys. Surely that's a lot of offset? Now I think about it, these cams probably came from an ST4 motor I pulled apart about 6 or 7 years ago. Eddy

Hi Eddy,

Brad could confirm this?
But I think the reason the cams had those offset keys is possibly because they're the same cams as the Strada's, but the drop cam ST4 heads and shorter belts would alter the timing.
Reed Herman aka Speedmade on this forum had offset keys made and was selling them on here, try contacting him.

Edit...I know you've said you're on a budget, but if you want the motor to give it's best with the spec you're playing with and you're already going to the trouble of dialing in the cams?
At least get both of the heads skimmed by 1mm to up the comp' ratio (I can get them done accurately for around £40 the pair, they'll still run OK on "Super" pump fuel) Chris Steedman at CJS near Bristol gets 118 rwbhp out of a well sorted 916 Strada, without using any special parts, he just modifies the parts that are already there and the peak revs/power are below 9,500 rpm.
Here's a link to what he can do, but as I've posted skimming the heads can cost a lot less.

http://www.cjsracing.co.uk/916_888_gasflow.htm

Steve R

MotorEddy

You thought this thread was dead, right? Just been busy with domestic life, which tends to get in the way of important stuff....like Ducati rebuilds.

Have rebuilt the heads and shimmed the valves using the lower end of the clearance specs.

Fitted the stock Strada / BP pistons and cylinders with later, thicker base gaskets and thin head gaskets. Checked clearance round the valve pockets (remember I'm using SP heads and 34/30 valves with Strada pistons) and squish. Coming in around 0.9mm, but these heads have been skimmed in the past which is perhaps why squish is tighter than I was expecting.

Belts are fitted and tensioned and I'm checking cam timing. The factory manual mentions fitting an offset key which is fitted to 748 SP models and recommends retro-fitting to machines not fitted with it. This could be read as "fit the offset key to 748SPs which aren't already fitted with it" or "fit the offset key to all other desmoquattros...the 748SP already has it".

Not sure which is correct, but I have fitted the key as the effect will be to advance all base cam timing, and from there I can adjust each cam individually.

The horizontal inlet cam has come in at 114 degrees; the vertical at 103 degrees. Need to do something to retard the latter, I think! Having trouble getting repeatable readings on the exhaust cams so I need to fabricate a different "foot" for the dial gauge in order to get some numbers I can work with.

Mr.R

I would think that the retro fitting of the offset woodruff key is for the 748SP's, as the 888SP(4)S, SP5's and 916 SP's (That all run the same cams) run different cams to 748SP motors.

Steve R

brad black

i think, because the 748sp was a homologation special, anything that would be done to it for racing was required to be "service procedure". so the manual lists cam timing adjustment and squish setting from memory.

but i've never seen an offset key on the timing shaft lh end.

the 00 - 01 996 had 4 degree keys on the timing shaft pullies as std, to advance all cams 4 degrees to try to make up for how far off they were.

doing it the way you have you'll use 6 offset keys instead of just 4. although sometimes, if you can't get the timing you want using offset keys (say you have 129 and you want 108), you then go the timing shaft. sounds like the manual just making confusing comments.

MotorEddy

Wired-up, plumbed-in, chain fitted. Instruments mounted, clip-ons fitted, brake calipers re-furbed with new seals, bleed nipples and banjo bolts. New brake and clutch reservoirs. Sorted out the manky clutch slave cylinder. Dismantled, cleaned, greased and re-assembled "foot controls". Changed all the old rubber hoses for plain black silicone.

Being injected, there's a friggin' lot of wiring, some of it pretty foul after 20 years (several laid up in damp sheds, hence the full-on rebuild). I had at some point in the past bought secondhand replacement front and rear looms, but when I tried to join it all at the battery box / relays area there was nowhere to plug in the regulator/rectifier. This is a replacement one - the original blew up coming down from the Val D'Aosta towards Milan on the way to Monza to watch the WSBs a long time ago (which is a story in itself). The design was changed because early bikes had so many issues, and an adaptor loom was supplied to make the change; this is the part I was missing. So I made a new sub-loom to keep the exotic Italian smoke well and truly inside the electric pipes.

Fuel pump can draw a fair bit of current, making the alternator work harder which also has marginal wiring, so I removed all the existing (single-phase) alternator wiring right back to the coils and fitted some fat electric pipes. I also cleaned all the crap out from under the fuel pump, changed all the hoses and fitted a new filter.

Bought oil, can of petrol and a battery....almost startup time, 20 years to the week since I bought the bike! Need to add brake fluid, oil, coolant and turn the engine over by hand with the plugs out until I'm sure the oil pump has primed and oil is making its way round. The external oil lines to the heads are pretty long....

(Obligatory 851 content - top pic, lower right hand corner)

MotorEddy

Is it possible for a moderator to move this thread into "Projects"?

MotorEddy

Cross-posted from another site:-

Update....

I had put the whole project on the back burner, being disillusioned by the bike failing to start the moment I hit the button the first time after the full rebuild. Over Christmas I met up with my cousin Charlie who has a couple of Ducatis - an 851 in boxes and a 900SS with 916 front-end, FCRs and some engine work. While we were chatting he recalled the time his 900 hadn't started after reassembly, and it turned out that the reason was that he had fitted the plug wires reversed front to rear. This got me thinking that I really needed to get back to my own bike and go through everything again - it could even be as simple as Charlie's problem.

Once I started thinking about it, I persuaded myself that there's no way I would have made that mistake and in any case I was sure I'd double-checked orientation and connection to the (replacement) coils when I'd fitted them. Then I remembered that last time I'd taken a look at my bike, the fuel pump had run when the ignition was switched on, but that it had continued running instead of shutting off after 5 or 6 seconds. This struck me as odd, and maybe something I should be concentrating on, so after some quick Googling and reading of Ducati forums the most frequently-offered suggestion was a faulty ECU or EPROM as it's the code in the EPROM which shuts off the fuel pump if the crank position sensor senses that the engine isn't turning (essentially to prevent a crashed bike from becoming a flamethrower).

(Bit of history here:- in 2001 I was commuting to work between Kirkby Lonsdale (ish) and Halifax and the 13-hour days with travel meant I wasn't using the 916 very much and it was left standing for quite some time. On the one occasion I dragged it out for the ride to work it snapped a cambelt and bent a couple of valves, and I ended up rebuilding it with SP heads with G/A cam combination and some high-comp FbF pistons (20mm gudgeon pin...the SPs have different rods and a 21mm pin for Ducati nerds). Because I was still running a single-injector setup and had a 1.6M ECU (the 916SP ran twin-injector and P8 ECU) I needed a new EPROM and was recommended to use the 853SP Ultimap chip which was intended for big-bore 748 conversions running SP cams. I never really liked the bike in that configuration - the G cams are long-duration and only really come alive over 7k RPM, when the power climbs quite steeply and it's a bit tiring riding a bike like this if it's used entirely on the road.)

Last night I pulled the rubber bung in ECU housing and prised out the stock EPROM, which I'd reinstalled during the rebuild now that I'm back on Strada cams. I then dug out and read the Ultimap packaging which stated "Insert the chip, together with the interface board, into the ECU EPROM socket". I peered into the hole in the ECU cover and the little interface board peered back at me. It would appear that when I removed the Ultimap I'd left the daughter board in place in the EPROM socket, and had inserted the stock EPROM into the board. I removed the interface board, re-inserted my EPROM directly into the ECU motherboard and turned the key - hey presto, the fuel pump now runs for 5 secs then stops! Too late in the evening to wheel the bike outside and try to start it, but I can't wait until the weekend.

Quick search revealed I'm not the only person to have this issue - see posts #5 and #6 in this thread:-

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/56-superbikes/622017-2001-748-ecu-eprom-issues-bike-won-t-start-stock-chip.html

sagot

Great news!
Good luck tomorrow with it!
Or is it today already over there?! 😄

MotorEddy

Well, I finally found time yesterday to wheel the 916 off the bench, out of the garage (just in case of, like, a huge fireball...) and tried the button. Took a bit of cranking, but it started and ran...roughly. Sounded more like a 450 single than a sophisticated twin. Then I remembered I hadn't re-attached the horizontal plug lead after my earlier troubleshooting. It ran a LOT better with both leads attached...then I noticed it was pissing oil from behind the vertical cylinder belt cover. I think I may have nipped an O-ring round the cam carrier on the vertical exhaust cam. I called it a day after that and put the bike back on the bench - will take a look at the leak soon.

MotorEddy

Late update to this thread...

Yes - I fitted late-style base gaskets (thicker) and late-style head gaskets (thinner) which means I should have swapped out the O-ring which blanks-off the unused oil feed hole for the late-style green O-ring.

resulting in this leak:-

I rushed the re-assembly and fitted the head gasket back-to-front (don't try this at home, kids - there's a pair of oil drain holes which must align) and had to do it again, this time properly.

Bike now complete and due its 2nd MOT since rebuild today (so standard pipes are back on):-

BUT...and it's a big but....it's still not running properly when warm. Symptoms are a stumble /bogging-down while slowly rolling-on the throttle at low-mid RPM. Makes it almost impossible to ride through town, or any riding which isn't wide-open-throttle. I managed to get an old copy of DucatiDiag working with a USB-to-3-pin Marelli converter cable. TPS values look good, air pressure and coolant temperature sensors good. Crank position sensor has been re-shimmed (and swapped-out). The ambient air pressure sensor was faulty - telling ECU that it was minus 30 degrees, and I thought I'd nailed the problem (bike would be over-fuelling constantly if ECU thought I was riding through Siberia) but I have fitted a new sensor, checked air temp reading against actual (and readings were now correct) and the problem persists. Have tried stock EPROM and "Senna" EPROM (ie. Termi end-cans) and it's just the same.

The problem is completely repeatable - the bike runs fine during warm-up, but once it's showing over 50 degrees on the temperature gauge the roll-on problem manifests itself again. If you roll-on the throttle while in the mid-range (running in a high gear, moderate road speed, with engine at say 3500 - 4000 rpm) the motor bogs down. If you roll-on quickly you can bog-down the motor completely, but if you are reeeaaally slow and careful with opening the throttle you can get past the mid-range and it's fine right at the top-end. But you can't ride like that all the time.

After checking/adjusting/swapping all the sensors I even thought it might be heat-soak from the cans into the ECU and a faulty trace on the circuit board opening up with heat, but I have changed-in a spare ECU and EPROM and the issue persists.